[Tim Harrigan]

@Carl Russell 39328 wrote:

…..I think it is important to make the site affordable to folks who may be occasional users, but I don’t think DAPNet needs to be apologetic for the cost/value that this site provides, and how it fits into the broader operation of an important network.

Folks who want to read, can do it for free, those who want to benefit by engaging in the network, should seriously consider contributing to the operation of the organization.

Current DAPNet annual membership is a whopping $20 for an individual, $30 for a family. There is a common expression by folks from “afar” that they may never personally benefit from DAPNet regional activities, but those activities make this site valid, and you will get the newsletter, and you will be supporting an effort that could eventually grow to where it could support activities in your region, either directly, or indirectly…….Carl

I was involved in the BoD discussions about this and we cut a pretty wide swath of possibilities. My sense of this $1 concept is that we are not asking specifically for $1, (PayPal will probably get most of that) we are asking folks to give some thought to what this site and the interaction and information available here is worth to them. What is the value of it to you? Can you get this information anywhere else? If I am honest about that, the value to me is considerably more than the $20 membership fee. So under this new process I will be paying more than I did with the old membership fee. I hope, and expect, that I am not the only one in that camp. And that has nothing to do with the events although I have been to a couple even though it is a 700 mile trek to get there.

I believe that everyone in the draft animal community has a responsibility to help others develop their skills and understanding of the craft. We are too few and far between not to, and who else is going to support us? We (all of us) are the best source of current and real life information about the practical application of draft animal power. There are no books or videos or anything that could fill the gap if this site cannot thrive. There are many ways to support this site and the organization including financial contributions, posting and joining in the discussions, volunteering to work with the board to build the organization, etc. Just be honest in your assessment and do what you can.

[Tim Harrigan]

This discussion of starting in the snow reminded me of this earlier discussion of draft buffers.

http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?2972-Draft-buffers/page2

In post #149 I attached a graph showing measured draft of a 1000 lb sled on snow. The starting draft spike the lasted for a second or two was over 600 lbs but the continuous force needed to keep it moving after starting was only about 80 pounds force. Interesting and I think surprising results.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Marshall 39253 wrote:

….do not have any credit cards? ….

We will have an address for sending checks, money orders, international money orders, cashiers checks, etc.

[Tim Harrigan]

Cool stuff, thanks Andy.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Rick Alger 39249 wrote:

…in our forest types…

This is a key concept. My guess is there is some truth and evidence to support both the comment by Rick and Geoff. We all suffer to some extent from selective perceptions framed within our own experience and realities. I have some confidence in assessing local impacts but my confidence wanes as I get farther from home. Get me out to Scott’s or Geoff’s neighborhood and I probably won’t have much to say. It seems to me though that if the forest type approaches a monoculture because of earlier harvests and replanting then some selective hard harvests with the intent of increasing botanical diversity and resilience in the future could be a defensible approach. But there are many considerations in such a decision. I am sure there are many better examples but these things are not all black and white, sustainable or unsustainable.

When I get a chance to travel I am often struck by the huge regional differences in the acceptance of various agricultural practices. They are rooted in the terrain, past practices, level of investment in the status quo, scale of production, many different things. My guess is you could take a small scale beef producer from the northeast and a Nebraska feedlot owner and put them in a room and they would fully agree on the need to protect the environment, animal welfare and on and on. But take them on farm visits to assess those realities and their response is likely to be different. Nothing is as clear cut and simple as it seems.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Carl Russell 39242 wrote:

I usually figure I move loads on snow and ice that are 1.5-3X as large as I move on dirt. Moving a snow-based load onto dirt can be a real bummer, but generally I find that for short distances of dirt in the mix of snow and ice are not that bad, and can be planned for.

It sounds like the load you had on was probably too big for them given the conditions, but a cord of logs is equal to about about 500 bf….. about 5-6,000 #, probably 2x the horses’ weight. It is also important to realize that long logs on a bobsled put much more weight on the dragging end of the logs, and on dirt it is magnified by extra friction at that point, some 20’+ feet behind the horses. This alone can change the effectiveness of the bobsled, regardless of overall weight. I generally stick with 12-16 foot wood when I am on dirt, placing the long logs as far forward as possible.

It is important to use all of the mechanical advantages that the equipment can provide. While moving long fuelwood logs may help some in production, it is somewhat self-defeating. Taking time to place the weight as far forward as possible, sometimes almost within reach of the rump of the horse, will pay huge dividends. Finding places where starting is easy, and planning ahead for challenging work areas will also pay off.

I have a certain philosophy about having the horses work hard for moving loads. It really is the basis for my competency in logging with horses. It may, or may not, apply to this situation, but I will add it here as your comment about them digging deep made me think of it.

Carl

Great description of your thinking and approach, Carl. It is important to remember that on snow, starting the load is the real challenge. Once it gets moving and you develop some momentum the draft drops off remarkably as long as you are not dragging anything, or at least not too much. On a lot of snow the runners seem to bond with the snow after they sit for a while and the instantaneous pulling force needed to break that bond on snow can be almost as great as on bare ground. That is why you can gain so much in building the confidence of your team by really being attentive to helping them start the load. Because I am working single with Will now this is always in the front of my mind. The starting, the distance, where I stop, etc. I always look for the top of a swale or something to give a downhill tilt to the start if I can. Sometimes I pull up on a small stem before loading to allow a start on that hard surface with minimal ground contact. It makes a big difference when you are asking for a big effort. I really think these efforts help your team and the benefits accumulate throughout the day. I continue to be amazed by, and grateful for, the effort that Will will give when I ask. Being attentive to what I ask of him and how I ask for the least amount of effort needed is how I demonstrate and express my gratitude for his effort and respect.

Carl mentioned the dragging ends and that is really important as well. I think of dragging ends as pulling a tillage tool on bare ground, or plowing snow, in addition to drawing the sled. I mainly use a log boat and pull 12′ to 16′. My boat carries the logs about 4″ off the ground as long as they are straight. I always make an effort to turn a crooked stem up at the end to avoid dragging because it really impacts draft. Of course, as Carl mentioned, when those 16′ hang off the back of my 8′ boat their are plenty of opportunities hang those ends so helps to be observant of the skid path. When I had Abe I would often ground skid, but now with Will working alone I only ground skid small stems.

My mechanical advantage skidding on bare ground with a log boat with no log/ground contact is about the same as with a log arch with the front hanging and the butt dragging with the same load. Both are much better than ground skidding if you have limited power for the task and you value conserving the energy of your team.

I think Carl’s loading rule of thumb for snow versus bare ground is good, but the crux of his story is that the devil is in the details. If you just load up that way without thinking about the details you might be disappointed. And starting the load is a big detail often overlooked. I love working with animals in the woods because every load, every situation is an opportunity to learn and demonstrate your respect for your team, and they to demonstrate their respect for you. It is a game for thinkers, if you choose to play it that way. I am so grateful to have the opportunity to work with animals in the woods.

[Tim Harrigan]

That was the tone and intent of the discussion, we will continue to refine our approach to make sure any changes are consistent with our mission and add value to the overall network. The overall effort is to weave a tighter web and to continue to find ways to refine all our activities including the web site, field days and events, etc. and make sure they complement and strengthen each other. Part of this process hinges on the ability to hire a part time administrator to take care of many of the details so we can harness the creative energy of the board of directors and other interested contributors. We are very confident that there is great value in the content and activities that DAPNet creates and are equally confident that our supporters will help keep it active and moving forward.

[Tim Harrigan]

Great video, George. Nice use of the cross haul, sure helps for trying to role those narley logs. Nice helper there keeping an eye on things.

[Tim Harrigan]

To me this really demonstrates the extent to which forests have been narrowly defined in terms of timber production. If the conventional thinking had valued any ecosystems functions at all there would not be much insight in this report. It takes a long time to change peoples thinking about systems like this, particularly if they have a vested interest in things the way they are. It will take several of these reports to turn the tide.

[Tim Harrigan]

Good point. I guess that is the price we pay for being, as Carl points out, A-holes.

[Tim Harrigan]

George, glad you got out of that tight spot with no injuries. I also work alone and like it that way, for the reasons you and Carl mentioned. I count on being slow and methodical and observant, I refer to is as having eyes in my ass. I also know that things happen and I have often thought that even though I carry a cell phone and a whistle that there is a possibility that I could not get either of them if I got in a tight spot and I could be trapped for several hours before anyone came looking. I have thought of some protocols, like calling in at certain intervals, but never implemented them. I hope I don’t regret it some day.

[Tim Harrigan]

Oh, don’t worry. It is perfectly safe. 😡

Must feel like standing on a train track with a speeding train bearing down on you.

[Tim Harrigan]

That’s for sure, George. Almost 1/2 the draft of the mower is in the resistance of the crop to the knives, and about 1/3 is just the mechanical resistance of the gearing. Put an engine on it and it turns into a pretty easy job.

[Tim Harrigan]

Donn, I am curious about side-draft in those 9 ft machines. What do you make of that?

[Tim Harrigan]

Looks like a nice, well-behaved team. Good winter fun. Thanks for putting those up.

[Author]

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