[Tim Harrigan]

I don’t have a good sense of the details but a number of years ago I was asked to help judge several entries for a post-frame construction contest sponsored I think by the National Frame Builders Assn. I was really surprised by the nice appearance of the buildings they were developing, I expected to see a bunch of pole barns. So go to the NFBA web site and see if you can find any information or construction details. The approach would certainly have to be different from your basic pole barn construction to be energy efficient.

[Tim Harrigan]

Carl, I have used one of those spreaders. I liked it, but it was tough to get lime to run through it without bridging up so I had to stop a lot. I had better luck when I did not fill it all the way, it seemed to pack down more when full just transporting from the pile to the spreading site. It also helped to make a frame with 3/8 inch I think screen to set on top and screen the big pieces as it went in. Maybe the easiest is to have someone walk along behind and keep poking it with a fork if you can find some help. Looks like it was working fine for you, though.

[Tim Harrigan]

:oHey Andy, how is that new planter working?

[Tim Harrigan]

Carl, are pigs incorporating the fertilizer and lime?

[Tim Harrigan]

@dlskidmore 27677 wrote:

Back to your tillage point, you’re saying don’t till to work in manure, add manure to match existing till? No ammendment between now and when I do fall turn-under?

This year is getting heavy tillage. One pass with the plow when it was too wet, and 1-2 passes with a rototiller. This fall I’m going to till the crops under and try to put in a hill/furrow while I’m at it to encourage earlier spring drainage.

I’ve handled shale softer than the clay lumps coming out of this soil. It should improve as it gets more organics in it. It’s already vastly improved where the sod got torn up well. The single-pass tillage areas are still very difficult to hand dig in, the double-pass areas are nice to dig, but still have some fist sized lumps in it, so it’s not overpulverized. I am limited by volunteer help with the plowing, and not having my own equiptment to do it exactly how I want.

I think I suggested no more tillage than necessary. I am not suggesting a series of operations, think of your farming system. There is no harm in using a mulch or cover crop throughout the growing season, just make sure what you have is compatible with your ability to manage it. If you lay down a heavy straw mulch that you plan to work in, and your tillage is with a rotor tiller, I call that a long day.

Raised beds are a good way to manage poorly drained soils, it would be nice to have a lister or other tools to help form those. If you do it by hand, that would also be a long day.

I guess I don’t need to convince you that plowing wet soil is a step backwards. Good luck with your volunteer help. There is a large garden near here, seems to be some type of community project. Often on a Saturday morning I will see a big group of folks busy as can be planting and tilling the soil. By mid-summer the ragweed will be head high.

[Tim Harrigan]

@dlskidmore 27676 wrote:

So you wouldn’t use it as fert around the row crops? I thought the corn at least would benefit from direct application…..

….You mention red and crimson clover, any reason to choose that over white? I think white is what I found available last I looked locally. I can mail order if there’s a good reason to do so.

Yes, there would be some benefit to mulching the row crops with manure. If you will be working that into the soil as some point think of what your tillage capabilities are in that regard and match the mulch with your ability to incorporate it.

White clover would be fine if that is what you have, I like red and crimson because they root deeper and in my experience tend to yield better.

[Tim Harrigan]

@dlskidmore 27640 wrote:

Update:
Question:
The plot is about a half acre, heavy clay that needs heavy ammendment. How many pickup truck loads of manure should I add and how often? And enough rotten hay to mulch over that? It looks like we’re getting a couple dozen bales of hay for mulch each year. They do up “harvest festival” big, (although it is really a halloween replacement and has little to do with harvests), and order bales for decoration that we can have afterwards. The archery ministry is also going to give us hay bales that have broken down too much for them to use for targets any more. I’ve also got a friend out in the country who’s family sold off their cattle on short notice and has rotting hay in the barn I can use. The manure supply is a vague promise involving a volunteer’s neighbor, but there are confined dairy places about here that I might be able to call and work with if that does not pan out.

That is hard to answer because manure vary from lightly soiled straw maybe 15 lb/cu-ft to wet bedded back 50 lb+/cu-ft. The heavier would also probably be much higher in nitrogen which the soil microbes will need to break down the straw or sawdust bedding. I would tend to pay attention to a soil test so soil P does not get to out of whack which it will with too much manure.

From a practical POV I think you should only put on enough manure that you can easily work into the soil with the tillage you are doing. If you have too much of the straw (carbon) it will tie up the available nitrogen and your plants will be deficient. Try to work in a legume cover crop like red clover or crimson clover, apply manure over that and till it in. That will provide a N kick to balance the carbon and also keep a living root system growing throughout more of the year.

One PU load is about 64 cu-ft so that might be one ton of manure and less than 1/2 of that will be dry matter. Typical soil is about 2 million pounds in the surface 6 inches. So you are not going to have a big impact just by dumping manure on. You really want to create conditions that will allow natural processes to work so you want to feed the soil.

It will take time, you can’t do it in one year. Think cover crops, organic amendments like manure or compost, no more tillage than necessary and a 5 year timeline.

[Tim Harrigan]

This thread is interesting, not because I am interested in running hogs in the woodlot, but because it has been making me think of how separate I have kept animals, grazing and woodlands in my thinking. I think it is because I have seen so many woodlots damaged by overstocking with cattle with no attempt to manage the overall system. And in my experience with what hogs on pasture do to the pasture they only seem to fit in a system such as Carl’s to speed the transition from woodlot to pasture or crop land. And maybe I overestimate the fencing I would need to confine hogs in a woodlot setting versus a single strand of polywire for cattle.

I have been thinking a little more about more of an integration of pasture and woodland because I think in the right circumstances with good management this type of managed ecosystem could be greater than the sum of its parts. It would challenge me to observe much more closely and thereby better understand the interactions of cattle, graze and woodlands, both specific species response and the flux of opportunities that emerge throughout the seasons and over longer periods of time. I have noticed a different mix of forage grasses and broadleaves near the edge of the woodland, mostly on the north edge where it is shaded most of the day. Cooler air and soil temperature, greater soil moisture, delayed maturity of plants so higher forage quality longer and later when forage in full sunlight begins to slump, grasses a little less competitive with legumes and other forages like plantain that are palatable and help provide a more diverse, mixed ration.

So I think that the issue is not that these systems are not sustainable, it is that they are rarely managed in a way that allows a balance of resources. These systems are more complicated and knowledge intensive than either pasture or woodland alone. Interesting stuff.

[Tim Harrigan]

Yes, it is sassafras, easy to ID now that the leaves are out. Thanks.

[Tim Harrigan]

I guess I would be more interested in silvopasture systems. Here is a link to a bulletin on it in the Northeast. http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/agroforestry/Silvopasturing3-3-2011.pdf

[Tim Harrigan]

goodcompanion;27484 wrote:

Forest and field are so fundementally different that maybe you can’t really have both in one place at one time.

It is a managed ecosystem so I am sure the challenge would be to find a sustainable balance of carrying capacity. With the area and number of animals I would likely be trying to manage I would see it as more of a flash grazing process with longer periods of restricted access, somewhat like I manage pasture. Certainly seems like too many animals with continuous access would be a problem. I am sure my view of it is over-simplified, it would be an interesting challenge though.

[Tim Harrigan]

I think Carl has a little agroforestry project going. How is that looking, Carl? I like the concept of pasture/crop trees but it does not really fit with what I am doing. Are you getting any planting done? Drying out pretty nice here, a lot of field work finally getting done.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Countymouse 27369 wrote:

… my neighbors say corn planting time is past.

That might be for them but it depends on a number of things. They probably have 95 to 100+ day hybrids, yours might be less than that. If you have good growing conditions throughout the summer and fall you could still have a good corn crop. Maybe you can shift some of it to a short season sweet corn. If you can get an acre of corn planted in the next 2 weeks I say go for it. You are not the first one to get buried under a rye cover crop, it does raise the stakes when you rely only on tillage for control. The tail that wags the dog.

[Tim Harrigan]

It has a heavy bark like locust. A lot of the branches turn at odd angles, and it is not really a hard wood. I think of it as a junk tree, not even very good for fire wood. Sort of a habitat tree though, woodpeckers seem to like to hollow out cavities in it.

[Tim Harrigan]

Any idea what this one is?

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