[Tim Harrigan]

Andy, I suppose we are all armchair quarterbacks when we post here, but you have received a lot of good suggestions for moving ahead and most of them are in some way about the communication with the animals and the leadership that makes the team work. One of the hardest things to accept with oxen is that you may hold the whip, but you are not really the leader until you demonstrate your trustworthiness to the team and they acknowledge your leadership. Most everyone here at least alluded the challenge of dealing with frustration and anger when the animals seem to resist your will. It is hard to accept that when you see yourself as the leader and you see their resistance as a threat to your leadership. But communication is not just you directing and them snapping to. They are also trying to communicate with you, sometimes in subtle ways, some more obvious like kicking at you and running away. It is not weak leadership to be open to that communication and demonstrate your willingness to bend or redefine your goals or objectives. This is challenging in two ways, 1) you have to be attentive and open to that type of communication, 2) you have to interpret it correctly (do I adjust or insist). That is part of the humility that Carl mentioned.

This communication is the thing that you can not rush. We have all had days like you described. A lot of them. The key thing is how you move forward, how you assess the activities, your feelings, how you asserted leadership, how they reacted, when did it become clear that they were uncomfortable with the pressure that you applied and so on. Then of course, how do you draw on that experience to become a better teamster. That is the difference between a teamster with a year of experience versus someone with one day’s experience 365 times in a row.

One caution, we use the pointed goad sparingly to mainly help the team learn to not crowd us. Be judicious and fair in the application.

[Tim Harrigan]

@mitchmaine 33549 wrote:

…what if the one bad session was actually the good one? what if you looked at it like all the good sessions were ok, but it was the bad session that actually taught you something about your critters or yourself as teamster? you have to have good sessions or you might not keep at it, but it is the challenges that get you thinking. maybe?

Mitch, you got that exactly right.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Countymouse 33541 wrote:

I think this is key to how to react to this situation. Did he not understand or was he being defiant? Hard to know without being there and without knowing this particular ox. …..I know it is unwise to be arguing with more experienced trainers and handlers who probably know better….

Andy, yes, hard to know without being there. But I don’t have to be there to see that you are being drawn into some unproductive interactions. I have said to you more than once that it is not a race. I know you have field work coming up and I am sure you will get it done. But in training the team of 3 you have to teach them first the mechanics before you can expect precision. I know you are not expecting precision, just do it. In some ways you can hurry some of the mechanics. What you can not hurry is the organic growth and transformation of their trust and willingness to work for you. I mentioned that they need to develop resiliency in their mental approach. You can not rush that, but you can take steps backward. They have limited ways of communicating. I don’t see them, but I think they are telling you that you are pushing too hard, going too fast. You are setting yourself up for frustration because your expectations are appropriate for you. Not for them. Your team is smart, but believe me, they do not have the same linear thought process that you do. And they never will. So that is why I asked you which team member needed to work on the mental approach. The answer is you, of course. And that is not an insult or criticism. Just the way it is.

I am trying not be be insulted by your defensive comment that it is unwise to be arguing with more experienced trainers. Do you think we see this as a competition where someone wins and someone loses? I don’t even see an argument. I see you struggling to train your mind and get in synchrony with two beasts that you will never be able to physically conquer or force to work for you. If I did not think you could see your way through it I would not waste my time commenting.

This is a different thread but I see this almost exactly the same as the oxen whips discussion of a couple of days ago. I could cut and past those comments here and not miss a beat. Take a look at those again.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Carl Russell 33529 wrote:

…Catch them unaware and just give them a big push, get them off balance, show them how big and strong you are, and how easily you make them get out of your way….

Carl, it is funny you mention this in this way. I had a 500 lb calf that just loved to push heads with the other calves, and he liked to give me little bumps as well, wasn’t really getting the idea that was not the best thing to do. So one day he bumped me and I threw a head lock on him and rolled him to the ground and I did not let him up for a good while after he stopped struggling. That seemed to sink in a little bit. Not sure if it is the right thing to do in all cases, but it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, and I really wanted to convey a physical message before he got any bigger. My thought was that he would soon be too big to ever do that again, but in his mind I would always be big enough.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Countymouse 33515 wrote:

… He refused to stand over and when i ratchetted up the pressure he kicked at me! …

Andy, I believe if he had really wanted to kick you, you would now have a gigantic bruise or worse. He was probably just seeking a way to express his own frustration and confusion. If he could post on this forum, who would he claim picked the fight?

[Tim Harrigan]

@Countymouse 33520 wrote:

…I don’t like to spend alot of time assessing blame, just learn and move on…

Andy, it has nothing to do with blame. You described what happened, I was curious to know how you thought about what happened.

[Tim Harrigan]

So which member of the team needs to work at getting his mind right?

[Tim Harrigan]

Could be a conditioning issue, sounds like incremental changes will be fine to just explore their response.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Countymouse 33459 wrote:

… The staple is we led to the plate on this design and it rather narrow. All except for the staple is fairly central and narrow and doesn’t have the abilty to slide to the back of a wide slot as in the tillers design. Maybe this is tilting the yoke more than it would otherwise? ….

If you have a fixed staple like an eye bolt it can affect the rotation of the beam which can tie into the curvature of the neck seat. I doubt if that is causing the problem but it is good to look at the whole system.

[Tim Harrigan]

Still can’t see how the bows fit. How do they look without a load, just standing with their heads up? I am also interested in the depth of the bow, the separation between the neck seat the chain attachment point. Is that a Howie yoke?

[Tim Harrigan]

Can’t really tell from that, looks like the bows might be too low.

[Tim Harrigan]

I like the way they are so easy and quick to hook to the log. Are those custom made? Nice video.

[Tim Harrigan]

John, I replied too quick when I was heading outside they I realized I overlooked an important part. Re-read it, I corrected it. It is actually a little more complicated than that because of the tilt of the log and the overhanging log but that is pretty reasonable for the purpose of this type of equipment.

[Tim Harrigan]

John, you could probably make it complicated but with a 12 ft log at 2000 lbs you are basically 167 lbs per foot or about 500 lbs over the bunk plus 1/2 of the rest of the log so 500 + 750 = 1250 lbs. If the sled and rider, if it is built for one, add another 500 lbs you would have 1750 lbs / 2 tires = 875 lbs/tyre. Not an excessive load for most vehicle or utility tires. That is, if I picture your sled correctly.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Vicki 33389 wrote:

… In hindsight, I think we may have pushed the steers yesterday past their frustration point, but actually after that they were angels, so I hope it was that we went past their testing our determination point…

Vicki, this is a really good and perceptive distinction that adds to the subtleties in training a team, particularly one that is a little older. This is a tipping point in many cases where the team is testing your determination, skill and resolve. That is a hump that you need to get over, but if you push it too far it can lead to frustration and even greater resistance from the team. I am not sure if I can offer any guidance where the tipping point is, I guess you have to trust your intuition. Sounds like you got it right.

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