[Stephen Leslie]

Thanks all for such useful responses. I guess I suspected hoof boots probably wouldn’t be up to the wear and tear of woods work—but it is so great to have this forum to hear others direct experience.

[Stephen Leslie]

Thanks for your response, Carl. And I entirely agree with your perspective, those of us doing “non-commercial” work in our own woods can afford to pick and choose when we go according to favorable weather/ground conditions. I just started wondering whether hoof boots might also be an option because it has been so darn icy up here this winter—there were even some stretches where it was so bad I wished the horses had caulked shoes just so they could navigate their winter paddock more safely.

[Stephen Leslie]

Re-upping this thread to see if any one knows or has experience with hoof boots with caulks as an alternative to caulked shoes? Question comes up because we are planning to do some timberstand improvement/firewood harvest in our woods next fall and winter. Our horses have always been barefoot so are trimmed towards that end, plus we probably won’t have enough woods work to justify the cost of shoeing.

[Stephen Leslie]

Congratulations, Donn! this is a beautiful and concise testament to your vision—you are such a well-spoken and inspiring advocate of draft animal power.

[Stephen Leslie]

Anthony—thanks so much for sharing both your practical experience and your poetic insight into the life of soil.
This has turned out to be such an amazing thread of great depth and scope and with more questions than answers…..

[Stephen Leslie]

Right you are, Donn—Pioneer has come out with a “re-issue” of that old-time harrow cart. I will paste a picture of Neal Perry demonstrating one at the DAPnet gathering at Perry Farm.

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[Stephen Leslie]

Your point is well-taken on riding vs, walking, Donn. I think you may have stated elsewhere on the forum that the weight of a forecart could be as much as half the draft when towing a disc harrow—and the teamsters weight is not adding anything to the effectiveness of the harrows. The other factor of course, is that riding in front of the forecart places the teamster in a more vulnerable position in front of whatever is being towed. A couple of years ago it was such a mild fall that I was able to plow into December. I went out to disc one morning not realizing how cold it had been overnite. Once we got into the field with the disc behind the cart it became obvious that some of the furrows were frozen and I was getting a bumpy ride. While trying to get off the field again I got bounced right out of my seat and landed in a sitting position between the cart wheel and the discs. Fortunately, I still had the lines and the team had stopped as soon as they felt the tension on the lines from me falling off—could’ve ended badly though.
The problem I have is that my old HD disc did not come with a truck and I had way too much side-to-side shimmy on it–to the point where it was whacking the horses legs. Essentially, I am using the forecart as a giant tongue truck just to make it safer to use the tool.
I also found myself pulling other drag harrows on the cart last summer because I was integrating two green broke horses into field work and I find that, once they are reasonable on the cart, I actually feel more confident at that stage taking them out on a wheeled vehicle rather than walking behind them over rough ground. It seems pretty clear though, that the most efficient use of horse power with the drag harrows is to wak behind them.

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[Stephen Leslie]

Thanks for the responses. Carl, look forward to hearing your story on carts.
Thanks for the leads, Erika—I will look into the carts you mentioned.
Donn, awesome description of home-built carts—thank you!
On our farm we only have a basic Pioneer draft horse cart (with the tongue cut down from 13’ to 10’ to accommodate our Fjords (Pioneer now also makes a Haflinger-size cart which is lighter than the basic) but this one cart has proven to be an indispensable tool. Our horse-drawn spreader is a single-axle model and this alone would justify having the cart to tow it as we move as much as 70 tons of compost with it annually. In addition, we use it to hitch to such fundamental tillage implements as the disc, spike-tooth, spring-tooth, and flex harrows, and a harvest wagon. During hay making the horses lend a hoof by pulling a Grimm tedder and New Holland rake behind the cart.

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[Stephen Leslie]

Thanks to everyone for informative and thoughtful replies,
Carl and George’s responses illustrate how the systems we develop are based on the scale we choose to farm at (or that farm economics compel us to choose). For instance, 15 years ago we initially planned to milk ten cows, but once our sister cheese co. was up and running they needed the milk of 20 to operate at what they felt was an economically viable level of production. 20 cows translates into 45-50 head on the farm plus four horses—a lot of poop! That herd increase obviously had a huge impact on our manure storage and handling, and we eventually had to invest in facilities to manage all that manure in an environmentally sensitive way. We built a cover-all structure for the herd and a smaller one to store manure in winter and a 1/4 acre stacking pad for making windrows of compost. Like George, we determined that at our scale it made more sense to have a neighbor come in with a frontloader and dump truck to clean out the composting pack in the cover-all barn. He also hauls compost to a rented field that is about a 1 1/2 away from the farm. We off-set this cost by selling some finished compost to organic growers and homesteaders in the area. We are managing 80 acres total—4 acres in garden plus hoop houses, 35 or so in pasture, and the balance in hay land. Jim’s clients who want wood products on their land are following the same trend as we are, but maybe for different reasons. We buy in about 800 yds of pine wood shavings annually to bed down all the animals. We found straw to be cost prohibitive. My wife Kerry also prefers the pine because of all bedding materials (save sand) it harbors the least amount of environmental mastitis. We use both tractor with PTO spreader and horses on JD ground-drive spreader to get the compost spread on the land. WE intensively graze the hill pastures and do not spread there, but the garden and hay fields are all spread annually. As Erika mentioned, we are also seeing some high levels of phosphorous in the garden—at this point it is in the higher range of optimal, but we still have to monitor it. We put about 10 tons of finished compost to the acre in the garden and sometimes more,and about 5tons/acre on the hay fields.
As best as I understand it from a historical perspective, 100 years ago, a dairy milking 20 cows in Vermont would have been on the large side. They might have had 2 or 3 teams and 6-8 farm hands (as well as their own children) working on the farm. Of course, many farmers at that time would have been growing all the forage crops (and bedding from straw). Even so, moving all that manure would be a Herculean chore. One big difference, is that we are putting a lot of labor into making compost rather than spreading out the back of the barn all winter (as a lot of farms in the northeast without spreading bans still do—including plain farmers). We do most of our spreading in the spring and fall, but will spread cover crops in mid-summer before plowing down. This year I hope to graduate to putting the Fjords 3-abreast on the spreader to lighten the work for them. Below is a record of our hours on the Horse-drawn spreader for 2012:
JD “H” series Manure Spreader: 35 hours total (141 spreader loads—24 on hay field—the balance on the market garden approximately 141,000 lbs. or 70 tons of compost delivered to soil by horse power in 2012).
Erika–thanks for the description of the oxen with the sprayer—saw your photograph of that a while back and intended to ask you for more details.
The photo shows me loading the JD spreader with our little Kubota to spread in the garden, while neighbor Matt Dow loads up the dumptruck for a compost delivery to Fable Farm in Pomfret.

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[Stephen Leslie]

Below is a summation of some of the great answers received to the “Best Horse” question both from here and from the Rural Heritage forum.
Carl in Ny and Jeroen in France–if you don’t mind having your response reprinted could you tell me your whole name and name of farm (Carl—town,too?) hartlandyoga@yahoo.com

Reports from the Field
The ideal Breed or Type? Erika Marczak, Abington Grown, Abington, CT.

I am not convinced that there is a best breed or type. There are good qualities to instill in a garden team. Following the teamsters directions are important, but I also like a little autopilot, in other words on loose line contact following the rows without wandering and stepping on crops. Maintaining a consistent speed when working is good to practice, as is stopping and standing patiently while a teamster works on equipment. I like a handy team that will take a step in any direction when asked and doesn’t hesitate to walk ahead when asked. I would like to someday train a team to relieve themselves on the headlands; if grooms can train racehorses to pee for drug tests on command—it may be possible for a market team.
Temperament not Size or Breed
Klaus Karbaumer, Karbaumer Farm, Kansas City, Missouri
A quiet , cooperative horse which is willing to follow commands and is physically able to do what is requested. Depending on the soil type and the size of equipment used, that can be any breed and almost any size. For cultivation purposes the horse’s width of stride has to fit into the rows or they have to be adjusted. Many of today’s high strung show type draft horses do not fit that description, but then there are always exceptions. I do not think a single breed can be preferred or declined over others if the individual horse meets the demand.
I have worked with Norikers, Haflingers, Kladrubers , Belgians , Percherons, Bavarian Warmbloods and even with a Shetland pony and the remarks above reflect my experience with these horses.
A Horse with Spirit
Carl Russell, Earthwise Farm and Forest, Bethel, Vermont
I am not a “market gardener”, so my points may be inconclusive, but I think it has less to do with the animal (some are using split-hooved creatures too), and more to do with the person….. I know… same old saw….
I find it distracting when teamsters are thinking about their relationship with their animal in terms of the tasks they want to perform. I use my nasty-ass scrappy logging horses to pull single row cultivators. No doubt I have had some horse-blight over the years, but generally I get the kind of work out of them that I expect in the moment. There is no program in breed, nor size, nor species that will automatically address the requirements of any particular task.
Now if all you are ever going to do with your animals is work them in a market garden, presumably quite large, then there may be room for establishing habitual expectations. Not unlike the bygone milk-wagon or fire-house horses, when the task is repetitive, and consistent, the animal can become automatic to some degree. I personally find that disheartening.
I like to work with animals with spirit. To me the power of the draft-animal is on the front edge of that spark that brings us into the present. Being there, communicating, directing, cooperating, in team with the animal is much more dignified to me. I drove some sleigh-ride horses years ago that would virtually step in the same prints trip after trip. The owner loved that, and would just go along for the ride. I had to stop driving them, it was a sad experience for me.
Now if you want to get into the economics of keeping smaller horses, or the affordability of purchasing certain breeds, as compared to the financial expectations of a particular task, and whether the market garden is the primary income stream or just part of a diversified landscape with other power expectations, then I think you have some ground to cover.
A Horse needs different Gears
Mark Gillenwater
Just as a riding horse has gaits, a garden horse needs gears. In the spring when it is time to turn the soil, my team likes to walk somewhat fast at first, hitched to the Vulcan 13 or Oliver 40 walking turning plow but then they settle in. It may okay to walk fast to the patch but when cultivating tender crops, a steady slow walk is desired. I use a single horse to make my rows for dropping in potatoes and to cultivate my corps on our small farm. The single horse I use from my team is a Suffolk gelding going on 18yrs.
Big Horse works well in little Plot
Jeroen, Charentte, France
This is a discussion which always makes me smile. It is the explications and the stories behind the choices which I find interesting. In my case for example, I owned a breed (brabançons) and started my market garden after moving to France. 2000 pound mares in the tiniest of market gardens looks a bit silly when starting, but I soon found out they can do anything if you can do it. Mine are not a matched team, one is speedy and pulls the cultivator like a big tree, so we take the other one for the delicate weeding of young plants. She walks slowly and more important puts her front feet down in a way that she does not throw up too much dirt on the young plants. Mrs. speedy gets her share on the forecart hauling manure to the garden and produce back. We use them as a team for plowing and after a while they go well together. In winter they both go logging, where their power is more handy. Next year I hope to be working in vineyards too, which will be interesting regarding their differences.
Eagerness the Key
Donn Hewes, Northland Sheep Dairy, Marathon, NY
I am not a professional market garden person myself (primarily a grass and hay farmer), but we are doing a little cultivating each year. Obviously if I am only going to cultivate for one or two days a year, and I will be looking between my legs trying to figure out which pedal is which, I will want my quietest slowest horse. But now fast forward a couple years to when we have increased the acreage, and our skill as a teamster and with the tool; it is hot and there is still two acres to go. You will want a horse with a little more eagerness.
I don’t think size is the key, although I suppose someone could make a case for a certain size matching a certain size of operation. Finally I think good cultivating horses will come from careful study of the animal and task, and dedicated leadership to show them what we want.
Horses are like People
Carl NY
Horses are just like people: each one is different. They will do certain things better than others and another horse will be just the opposite. Not that you can’t plow with a hitch horse or hitch with plow horse, but they will do one or the other a lot better. I know you can barrel race a draft and you can mow with a quarter horse, just not as good or efficient. It doesn’t have to be different breeds, just there temperament and actions can make a big difference. That being said, you can train just about any horse to do what you want, just maybe not as good or efficient as another horse.
Bigger not always better
Michael Wilson, Horse logger and blacksmith, Bluemont, Virginia
Forty years or more ago a savvy old man (late 80s then) who had a feed and grain warehouse, and tack and harness store in New Milford, CT shared some information with me that I have never forgotten. Perry Green had lived through the peak and the nadir of draft horses in America. Even during the worst times he always had good heavy harness for sale, one of the few who bothered.
At that time 18 HH horses were still considered very large. He said, “Michael, America was farmed, logged, and freighted with twelve to fourteen hundred pound horses.” He thought that the quest for ever bigger horses was ridiculous, particularly for practical working and hobby models. They were too expensive to keep, too hard to harness, and did not do enough more than smaller horses to justify their use. Today, although it is hard to find a fifteen hundred pound, 16 HH or under Belgian or Percheron, one can find good Suffolks, Fjords, working type Haflingers, and crossbreds that will get the job done, and that are not worn out just from carrying their own big bodies around at the end of the day. If you have been led to believe that performance is commensurate with size, I’d suggest that you compare loads pulled at the pulling contests by light weight teams compared to the open division horses.
Think twice about “big” horses and consider the many attributes of the “big little” horse. Smaller work horses can make up for what they may lack in brute strength with stamina and hardiness. You may find that in comparison to a great little team that a pair of bruisers may turn out to be too expensive to keep without getting any more production.

[Stephen Leslie]

So many great comments—Wonderful conversation here!
Will Stephens —I hope your question is a catalyst for more fine deliberations….
I heard from Eric Nordell last year (very experienced horseman) that he brought home a big gelding from auction to fill out his work force. Within a couple of weeks one of this horse’s rear hocks ballooned up and despite treatment and money spent, it could not be cured and the horse had to be put down. Next, Anne & Eric bought a Suffolk mare from a local man who said: “Work her for the summer and if you don’t like her bring her back and I’ll give you back your money”. Probably not easy to find someone who deals in horseflesh with that kind of integrity (and of course, he had confidence in Eric not to mess up his horse)—but I guess that’s the kind of person I’ll be looking for next time I need to buy a horse.
Carl Russell—-thanks for sharing your vision of what keeps you in relationship with your horses…beautifull
On the scale we are working (4 acre garden) I find we are using enough diversity of implements and shifting tasks as the season progresses to keep me and (I think) the horses fully engaged and challenged (in a good way). We also get them in on some hay and woods work—the haying in particular is a great change of rhythm from the relatively confined space of the garden. Another facet that has kept things lively for me has been training and integrating two younger horses into the work force (with a settled team to help me in the process) over the last three years—a work in progress.
To give a sense of what I mean about diversity of tasks—below is printed our:
Cedar Mountain Farm Horse-Drawn Essential Equipment List
Basic forecart
Hillsdale 9ʺ single-horse plow
Pioneer 14ʺ walking plow
Syracuse 10” two-way riding plow
6′ disc
3′ spring-tooth harrow (nine teeth)
5′ flex harrow
5′ spike-tooth harrow
60-bushel John Deere manure spreader
International Harvester walk-behind cultivator
McCormick-Deering straddle row cultivator
Second McCormick-Deering straddle row cultivator set up with disc hiller attachments for potatoes, leeks, and corn
McCormick-Deering no. 6 mower (for clipping cover crops and headlands)
Hoover single row potato digger
Harvest wagon
Flatbed hay wagon used for harvesting crops
I&J three-point-hitch adapter for basic forecart with tool bar
Grimm tedder
New Holland rake
I think it is a tribute to the intelligence of the equine that they can shift so readily between this many implements.

[Stephen Leslie]

Thanks for your thoughts, Erika—I am mainly in agreement with your points. Though I am a Fjord enthusiast (and would probably like to be a Suffolk enthusiast too if I had more work, time, and money for horses)—and find the draft ponies almost perfectly scaled to our 4 acre garden, I really think it boils down to the individual qualities of the horse: including brains and temperament. “Old Yeller was a mongrel, a mangy flop-eared mongerl—best dog-gone dog in the West!”

[Stephen Leslie]

This is good news! We all need folks like you to be on the ground doing what you love—so great that you are taking these next steps towards HOME.

[Stephen Leslie]

Such great input from you all! Thanks so much—-very helpful information. Will keep you posted as we go forward.

[Stephen Leslie]

Correction to above:meant to say off-set hitch (not tongue) on Pioneer cart.

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