[Scott G]

I agree with Carl & Jason; I do not think there should be a limit on numbers of folks with ideas. I do, however, believe when the “rubber hits the road” we need to decide/vote on a core group of decision makers. The more folks you have on a committee the more unwieldly and cumbersome the decision process can become. It is best to have a smaller group that represents all interests from the larger group as a whole. People that have a substantial background in the logging business are going to be the ones that can view an issue from all angles to hopefully put out a well rounded product that will appeal and have benefit to all.

Jason, my apologies. I saw Bret’s post on Yuku with his desire for more networking. The invite was ONLY for the general discussion on DAP about getting an organization revitalized, not for participating in the formative group. I didn’t see any of his posts, but from what I’ve learned the general impression was he was a beligerant, insulting mouth. I am a firm believer that all opinions matter in the big scheme of things. That said, it is expected that they be expressed in the form of calm, civil, and constructive debate. Insulting or berating someone and/or their beliefs is intolerable and has no place at any table. It has been said that using excessive derogatory statements and profanity is inversely proportional to one’s intelligence. Enough said..

Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

My idea would be to put 2 in front of 1…

#1) To explore feasibility, content, and implementation for the publication of a quarterly newsletter, both electronic & hardcopy, for Draft Animal Timber Harvesters on an international scale.

And based on the response from that effort…..

#2) Look at the feasibility, demand, and benefits for establishing a formal international association for Draft Powered Timber Harvesters.

In my mind there is already an apparent demand and desire for a networking format in the form of a newsletter. When/if that base builds, the subscribers will create the momentum for the much more detailed process of forming a formal organization.

More thoughts everyone???

Scott

[Scott G]

I’d like to see this one bounced around a bit. While I am willing to act in this role, there are many more loggers on this list that are as or more experienced and driven than I am.

I’ll go with whatever the group decides.

Thx,
Scott

[Scott G]

I like and would vote for the idea of breaking it down by forest regions of North America and other countries. I would also second that we need to keep the core group somewhat small, with an odd number to break a tie, and possibly a minimum for a quorum.

My belief is that most participants are going to be well rooted in traditional harvesting, the only difference being the primary objective of the show and how they are paid.

My two cents…
Scott

[Scott G]

Carl,

Sorry to hear Bret couldn’t exercise tact in initiating a debate. I am more than likely the one responsible for him jumping in due to my responding to him on Yuku and inviting him to participate in the association discussion. Unfortunately I didn’t see any of his posts while I was away, but from RH & Yuku they seemed to indicate a rant on subsidies. Joe must have cut him off on most of his posts as well, according to the one allowed at the tail end of the thread. Curious as to the premise of the discussion/rant as I would be more than willing to entertain them on Yuku if he insists that he has been slighted on expressing his thoughts, albeit by his poor tact and/or personal attacks. E-mail me if you would rather not post the response here.

Thanks for keeping this site civil and on track…….

-Scott

[Scott G]

Hello all,

Carl, I received the e-mail. You’re the man for setting this up. Phenomenal response so far! Let me know when you’ve heard back from everyone so we know when to start having some serious dialougue. I will still be in/out due to fair over the next couple of weeks but will be checking in periodically.

Great to have the international input so soon!

Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

In & out real quick folks, and then off to the fair to help the wife before she kills the children…..

I just wanted to clarify the service approach. It may not be just a “maintenance” type of contract. Locally we are often referred to as forestry contractors. There may be enough stumpage to pay for the work and turn a profit but more often not in our timber types where the value is put on the residual. Any marketable material is marketed. The idea is that the logger does not starve while the landowner enjoys a bang up TSI job and improved residual inventory. I have heard of similiar models in Europe where all of the forestry work is charged as a service on a per unit basis. The landowner maintains possesion of the timber (including the government) and contracts out the harvesting, road construction, TSI, trucking, etc.. That puts the burden of P&L for the commodity on the owner. Doesn’t it make sense that the person that owns the commodity should assume most of the risk for their product? Think real hard and see if you can come up with any other enterprise with such a bassackward business model as conventional logging. We buy a marginal raw product on the stump so that we can assume the risk? Food for thought. Now I need to go move horses…..

Watch your top knot…..
Scott

[Scott G]

I agree, we have more than enough to start with. I will be out of touch for a while as well, heading into the old home backcountry for a couple of quality days with the fly rod. Will be at a computer briefly Sat p.m. and then mostly out of touch again while we run the basecamp for our daughters at the fair; horses, market steer, etc. crammed into a small amount of time. It’s an annual frenzy but an enjoyable one…

Carl, is the offer still there for a “spot” on DAP where the key players can act as a committee to come up with a focused direction & mission and define some clear-cut objectives? Over the next few days it would be great if folks that are seriously committed could step forward and announce their availability for the formative committee.

It is obvious that folks are interested in having a cohesive networking opportunity for draft powered forestry on an international scale. The only question is what form will it take. My vote is still to start out with a newsletter, both hard copy and e-copy, see what the response is, and then make a go/no go decision on forming a structured organization based on the response or lack thereof of the newsletter subscribers.

Thank you very much for everyone weighing in on this & contributing. It is amazing what can happen when a group of individuals get together with a common goal…

Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

All,
I would be happy to be part of the effort. I do believe, however, that number one it has to be a team effort. The old adage “many hands make light work” really carries a lot of weight here; especially when we talk about the spirit of the effort on which we are about to embark.

Jim, I am glad that you like the idea of subscriber contribution. I believe its imperative to get input from the group we disseminate this information to. Networking is not by definition a one-way street. That aspect of Caudell’s newsletter was one of my favorites if for no other reason than acknowledging that there are other folks out there making a go at it and mentioning the method to their madness. I think the “dovetail” could come from an online presence and links/notices to various draft associations, forestry associations, state/provincial foresters’ offices, etc. Thank you for your offer to help with editing. This is a case where the Internet can be a god-sent for our cause, enabling us to ship files back and forth to one another and electronically submit them to a publisher and/or printer who will give us the best deal, both in price and quality, regardless of geographical location.

Simon, thank you very much for your input! You will be key in being an international liaison for the effort. I am not worried so much about translation. In my past I have been exposed to many nationalities and languages. Even though I am not fluently bilingual in any language, there are always folks from the various nationalities in any discipline that are. I have seen English translations for Skoghasten, which seems to be the most active other than the BHL. Other nationalities can provide translation as they come on board as part of their contribution to the effort. I do not believe we should be overly concerned with that. Interest will facilitate participation.

Rick, believe me, I realize the situation. Competing for stumpage and trying to make a living off of your log deck is an exercise in futility with the current market in pulp, fuelwood, and construction lumber. Based on your region, I would assume that you deal more with stud & pulpwood mills rather than quality hardwood processors. Whatever the case, I believe in order to be successful there needs to be a paradigm shift. You speak of value-added. That term can take on many more meanings rather than just timber products. I would also assume that your area in NH, just like mine in CO, is experiencing a tremendous growth in vacation/second homes for the more affluent. These folks are more concerned with esthetics and maintaining a peaceful retreat as their management objectives than anything else. Having a major timber sale go down on their property is not an attractive option, at least in my part of the country. If they have offers from both mechanical and horse operations for their stumpage, of course they’ll pick the horse logger for the low-impact option if that is their primary concern. The fact that they realize any income after being use to paying for tree/arboricultural services’ at their primary residence leaves a smile on their face. In my opinion, to try to pull that off while paying inflated stumpage rates is an exercise in futility as a horse logger. The more feasible business model for a horse logger (which I use) is to charge a set rate for their ‘value-added’, low-impact service as a service. This service is set at an hourly, area (acre/hectare), or volume (mbf, cord, m3, etc.) rate. In my area a practice that I coin “knee jerk forestry”, which I hate, is the standard operational practice. If there is smoke in the air it is fuels reduction and D-space, current bark beetle issues it is sanitation/salvage, haz tree removal and so on. Even though I hate it, the fact remains that it represents the landowners concerns at the time and hence the outlet for their maintenance and/or disposable income as well as grant assistance money. Done right, and I harp on this, you can address all of these concerns with quality proactive forest management. If there is significant value in the stumpage, I will either deduct the mill receipts from the bill after trucking or send the landowner my bill with the trucking bill and have the mill check sent directly to the owner. As I said in an earlier post, I very seldom purchase stumpage unless it is an awesome site and the market is very favorable. Providing a service, billed as a service, is my standard mode of operation, even when I was running a mechanical operation. As a current professional land manager for an agency, I pull my hair out when we are trying to pull off forest management on a landscape scale due to the excessive land fragmentation we have in our region. From a horse logger perspective, this reality is an opportunity that plays into every advantageous aspect that animal powered harvesting systems can offer. This is a topic that deserves its own thread, as I believe it is the future of our cause, making lemonade out of lemons.

As far as subsidies, Rick mentioned WHIP. That acronym stands for Wildlife Habitat Incentive Program. There are also or have been, SIP (Stewardship Incentive Program), FIP (Forestry Incentive Program), FLEP (Forested Land Enhancement Program), and so on… The main points of all these programs historically are that they pay cost share to the landowner, not the practitioner. The only future option that shows promise is BCAP, that pays a supplier a subsidy on a per ton basis for woody biomass as fuel. This program is in its infancy and I am involved in the Rocky Mtn region with its potential implementation. I’ll fill everyone in on this later, no more government acronyms for now….

Another item Rick and others mentioned are PACs’. I have no interest and believe this would be an insurmountable leap for a fledgling effort to undertake. PACs’ require a phenomenal amount of money, and contrary to popular beliefs, really strap your organization down as far as what you can and can’t do as well as creating a burdensome reporting process. PACs’ are for large corporate industry and well-heeled trade groups, something I have no desire to be involved with. In my opinion, we are better off marketing our virtues in a non-traditional, but very available and in demand, market.

To sum it up, I think first we should start with a communication effort that reaches all demographics of draft powered forestry practitioners; this includes a hard copy newsletter. Based on the future response, we should survey subscribers to see what the interest is in forming an organization. I believe we have a very real and important role in the future of forestry in this world, especially given the current concerns regarding resource extraction and environmental impact. This however, will require a paradigm shift in the way we operate and subsequently, charge for our services. To continue as in the past is only going to result in repeatedly banging a peavey upside our heads……..

Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

Keeping everyone involved is a continuing struggle of any association. No one should be expected to carry the load alone, provided they ask for/accept help. I believe, due to the fact that horse/mule/ox loggers are such a small percentage of the forestry community, that an international aspect may work well. If we tap into the energy that BHL, Skoghasten, and possibly others currently have it could be a jump start with high potential.

Being that I’m not a member of NAHMLA (although I sincerely wanted to be), I gather that I would not be able to vote at a possible meeting to be convened at some future date. As I said at the very beginning, it is unfortunate when people want to join an organization to further the “greater good” and network with one another that the possibility doesn’t exist due to inactivity of said organization. I am more than willing to move forward with whatever opportunity presents itself and to help in any support role required. This is what I was hoping for, to get the core folks that care about draft powered harvesting systems and are willing to get involved and want to see a higher level of cohesion/networking, talking……

Another aspect I liked about Gregg’s newsletter were the letters he received and published, titled “Who’s doin'”. I think a great way to get more content for a newsletter would be to REQUIRE as a condition for membership, other than subscription/dues, a minimum of a half-page written up describing where you are, what you’re doin, and how. You could fill up a quarterly pub pretty quickly with those as well as have many archived for future use.

My thoughts, lets hear yours………..

[Scott G]

Gregg,
Great to hear from you! I shot you a message last night when I saw you had just joined. Impeccable timing on your part. I do not believe that I/we are putting out a rallying cry, more along the line of an association of like minded horseloggers who can network with and learn from one another. My life is good and I’m not sure how to take “those that survive become what they want”. I have definitely survived and have had a great professional career and business in the woods for 20 years. My comment, which may have been misunderstood, is that the ability to network with peers and learn from one another goes a long way in keeping any trade alive and thriving. Had I had at least one other serious horselogger to network with I very likely would have never made the detour through machinery. I really appreciate what your newsletter did and that is exactly what I am talking about. Someday I’d like to touch base with you and get the back issues I don’t have. On the renewable energy topic, that is a substantial part of what I do, manage the fuel supply for our County that heats all of our ~100,000 square feet complex with wood chips. We are unique in that we have a closed loop system where all of our fuel is from the 30,000 acres of County owned forest that I help manage. I work very closely with the Colorado Governor’s Energy Office and CSU lending support to other chip/pellet systems in the State and helping those projects with their fuel procurement strategies. We could definitely start another thread on that if you like……..

Jason, thanks for following up with Tim. The last thing I want to do is ruffle feathers and leaving someone feeling slighted. My thoughts are for us to take the pressure off of him and decide what direction might work for the horse logging community to further the networking effort.

I’ve read Glen’s posts archived on the working horse website. A lot of good information is located there, again , a result of networking. What keeps the boards from being the end all is the need to have a written newsletter as an option. Many horse loggers and woodsmen aren’t involved with an e-world and deal exclusively with paper and the post office. I myself like a hardcopy that I can read in the truck when taking a break or in basecamp.

Carl, many thanks for what you’ve put together here. Focusing on the work and sustainabilty aspect of draft animals is what makes this site the top one on my list. I appreciate a solution driven discussion with some philosophical thinking behind it. Kudos for the work that goes above and beyond in getting this site up and keeping it running.
Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

Thanks everyone. From the quick replies it looks as though there is interest in having an active organization. Carl, I too thoroughly enjoyed Caudell’s newsletters. Unfortunately my experience with them were as back issues. I cannot begin to express to you had I known about Gregg’s efforts and network, as well as the genesis of the NAHMLA, how that might have affected my life’s path. When I first started seriously horse logging in the early nineties I had know idea such a collaborative existed. Even though I had a strong background/education working in the woods and with horses, everything I learned about skidding with horses was self taught. There were no visible horseloggers in the area/region to network or mentor with. So the little things that we know make all the difference with efficeincies and production were learned the hard way with no input from a mentor or a peer. Had that been available, both for education and support, I probably would not have moved to a mechaical operation. When I first came across the online resources and organizations for horse logging it was with mixed emotions. I was blown away and transfixed by the world beyond my horizon in the realm of horselogging. At the same time I was saying to myself “why in the hell wasn’t I connected into this many years ago?”. The fact that in the world of harvesting systems animal extraction is a fraction of a small percentage, illustrates the need to have an accessible organization where practitioners can network, educate one another, and speak as a group.

Rick, as a former member of the Colorado Timber Industry Association I can tell you that lobbying for your concerns is critical. The issue is that on a national or state scale it takes one/both of two things, a large time commitment or significant money. Working locally, however, one can build on relationships and professional associations from the past to definitely change some perspectives. Finding that niche in your region where horselogging excels as the lowest impact and most efficient harvesting system and solidly demonstrating that to the people that matter such as landowner groups, resource managers, etc. I have found to be the most effective means of marketing.

Jason, do you know exactly what the entity status of NAHMLA was/is? You are correct that if it were going to be a 501(c)3 actively lobbying would be asking for trouble. Legal entity classifications such as yours are great for education & community services but can be hamstrung if over extended. You are to be applauded my friend for the time and effort you have put in to keep the merits of horse logging in the public eye.

I guess to sum it up I would be happy if NAHMLA were resurrected to exist if for no other purpose than as a focused association for the exchange of information and contacts, as well as providing somewhat of a unified voice. Every individual out there involved in logging with animals has some knowledge/experience that everyone else could benefit from. Forums and the WWW are phenomenal for the exchange of information. Lets remember, however, how fiercely independent most horse loggers tend to be, coupled with the fact that many do not have/want e-mail. An example would be mine, completely unaware and out of contact. I believe a newsletter format such as Caudell’s or NAHMLA is essential.

Lets keep this conversation going. For those of you that are good friends with Tim it would be nice to invite him in on this conversation.

Take care,
Scott

[Scott G]

Thanks everyone. It has been a journey but they say it ‘builds character’……or was that ‘breaks you down’??

Yeah J-L, MPB trees are turning out to be major business. Not only infested trees but as they die and become hazard trees there will be a lot of work opportunity for horses to sneak in the tight places on small properties and skid them out. Also, as the regen starts coming up horses will be one of the very few viable options to get the material out without trashing all of the regen. Most of this will be after the stuff gets windthrown and becomes a fuel hazard.

[Scott G]

Bronco, it has permethrin and pyrethrin. Apply twice a day when its buggy. Definitely helps with the attention span when working. Second Geoff’s comments regarding our yellow jackets. September is bad and they always seem to have their nest in your skid trail………
-Scott

[Scott G]

Scandinavia has been kicking our rear in so many aspects of forestry. Their attention to efficiency and handling of small wood specifically interests me. Interesting to see the western style of hames and collar integrated into their style of D-ring. I have gotten used to seeing the wooden hames they normally use. Is that a Spotted Draft or a Clyde/other with a lot of chrome? I have a 4yo Spotted Draft gelding as my latest addition, great horse! Most importantly I want to know where I can get my hands on one of those stylin’ Skoghasten ball caps!

[Author]

Posts