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Here’s what I got when I tried to scan the images from SFJ.

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I can try and scan the drawings – remember SFJ has pages like 2 ft x 3 ft:eek: I don’t recall if our scanner works or not – I’ll give Kinko’s a shot otherwise.

For those with old SFJ issues – the drawings are in the Winter 1995 issue back around page 60 or 70 (past the story on mitchmaine).

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@Carl Russell 22355 wrote:

Who did the drawings of the bobsled?

Carl

Hey Carl,

It says they’re from Pulpwood Hauling with Horses and Sleigh copyright 1943. Two separate drawings w/ an elevation and top view for each.

Jen – we’re coming!:eek:

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Hey John,

It’s just that those stones are up to 50T – hard to imagine what you could pull with. I do know of flax (and other plant fibers) that will wrap the cylinder on the combine up tight.

I was looking at some old photos of harvesting linen from flax. Really a pretty cool process – retting and all that. Amazing that you could get such nice material from the stems of a plant like that.

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@Tim Harrigan 22326 wrote:

Frozen Loggers Song. And a little help from the oxen.

Nice one Tim! And I thought that song was only a curse in my head.

We recently got to visit Stonehenge and I can’t imagine even a “20 mule power” oxen team moving some of those things. Not to mention how they “lifted” the lintel stones up! Also, what in the world could they have been using for “rope” – hemp?

My best explanation would be that they employed the Flintstone’s brontosaurus steamshovel:rolleyes:

With regard to the lack of use of animal draft power in the new world, Jared Diamond might address that in his book “Guns, Germs and Steel”. Really an interesting take on why western European culture/technologies etc have come to be dominant/successful in the modern era. (That’s a pretty lousy synopsis but …) Read it this winter.

BTW – when is the earliest documented sign of the wheel being used? Just wondered. IMHO – I might guess it would come from using logs to roll a heavy object – a slice of that log or round could be seen as a wheel.

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I’m no expert by any means on biochar usage but my understanding is that the charcoal residue(s) provide a medium for “biological activity” – like adding compost/except bulkier and slower in decomp.

I’m not sure what Amazonian soils are/were like except that they were nutrient poor (most tied up in the masses of vegetation).

As far as a sustainable system goes, Tim, I’m not sure I can describe one but primarily because I think a truly sustainable system is like a perpetual motion machine – a great target but practically, unachievable.

My best description would be “robbing” soil in the woods via using the slash etc for biochar and enriching food plots with it. Unfortunately, since there’s no free lunch …., the carbon and other nutrients that eventually would have been recycled back into our original forest soils are being removed. That’s also why I wouldn’t sell charcoal from my wood. Taking the grazers mantra one step further, in as much as possible, don’t sell organic matter off your farm. You always have to replace it.

dlskidmore – I was referring to my comment(s) about using the volatiles released in the charcoaling process to power a motor or something. Not to a different thread.

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Carl,

You are right with regard to both the right to provide TO a customer as well as the right of the customer to CHOOSE a product. You all might have a better handle on what to expect “argument -wise” from the opposition but I would be concerned that the “food safety” points could hurt the raw milk side unless they are addressed in a well-thought out respone.

If it comes down to the “rights” of one group vs the “perceived” safety of consumers, you know where most legislators will place there vote. That’s not to say the rights aren’t an issue nor the benefit(s) from having a way for new small farmers to get in the game.

I don’t know about taking this approach, but one could make the argument that milk (even pasteurized) is not a “safe product” with the evidence being the number of illnesses resulting from consuming pasteurized milk. But in reality, no is meat or any food stuff is “completely safe”. There is always some risk in eating – and one variable is the consumer’s knowledge of proper handling and preparation.

I do agree milk is a great medium for growing stuff – good and bad. But knowing that, why wouldn’t we ban all milk and milk products? Because we, the public, are willing to accept the risk (big or small) of consuming those products – AND they’re yummy.

On a side note, hang tough Erika. As inspiration, 3 local residents here in ID are still fighting the good fight against Conoco-Phillips and Exxon-Mobil – trying to stop hundreds of giant loads of oil processing equipment from using a 120 mile+ scenic hwy headed for the Alberta oil sands. So far, these folks have been able to get an injunction, get over-ruled by the ID supreme court and then force another session of public meetings.

Check out http://www.fightinggoliath.com for inspiration and info. Small voices can make a difference.

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Does the CDC put out “Morbidity/Mortality Weekly”?

It’s a real publication with reported disease data reported on a weekly basis (if I’m remembering fro my microbiology classes correctly).

Also, Erika, you are on the Food Democracy Now (http://www.fooddemocracynow.org/) mailing list, aren’t you? They might have some facts already sorted and compiled.

Once again the industry argument of guilt by association is “kicking the dog”. The fluid milk market is over-producing and thus, prices are low. The standard ag econ response – get bigger to spread the fixed costs. That makes perfect sense, produce more milk into a saturated market and when that doesn’t fix it, blame the dog (raw milk)! For crying out loud, they’ve already got a government price support structure that the raw milk folks don’t get to dip into. What more can they want?

The arguments that will be thrown at you for banning its sale will likely be the “x” number of bacterial species that are found in raw milk, many of which are also not destroyed completely by pasteurization.
Here are a few things I ran across from googling “raw milk”.

OPDC milk products are highly pathogen resistant. In more than 120 million servings, and more than eight years of intensive testing, not one single pathogen has been found or detected in our raw milk samples.

As part of the Food Safety Program at OPDC, OPDC tested all of its cows manure in the summer of 2008 and found no Ecoli 1057H7 present. The manure pathogen tests were performed at the UC Davis and CDFA milk products lab in San Bernardino CA.

In summary, it has been theorized that the combination of grass feeding, no antibiotics used, no hormones, and low levels of grain used in diet cause a change in the cows immune system and rumen. This change in physiology directly inhibits pathogen development in the milk (actually a transfer from environmental contamination that does not seem to occur; there are no bad bugs in the manure that transfer into the milk and the clean raw milk is highly pathogen resistant).

http://www.organicpastures.com/faq.html

Production of nisin
Raw milk contains lactococci. If favourable conditions for growth occur then high numbers will result. Some Lc. lactis strains produce the antibiotic nisin. Nisin is a broad spectrum antibiotic and if produced it will inhibit some starter cultures …….
Natural indigenous antimicrobial proteins

The ability of raw milk to inhibit the growth of many bacterial species has been known for many years and one of the earliest reports was authored by Hesse in 1894.

http://www.dairyscience.info/inhibitors-in-milk/51-inhibitors-in-milk.html

Sorry, I started to get carried away!! Get ’em Erika.

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“I have never had the opportunity to spend so much (but yet so little) quality time with so many like-minded folks that are so immersed in a belief, culture, and lifestyle, as I am.

We need to take this energy and move our culture/methods forward.

You people now occupy a very special place in my soul…”

Amen and well put Scott! Those were my feelings as well when I was leaving NEAPFD. I felt guilty that maybe I was getting too sentimental, soft and touchy feely but you have validated what I feel.

So, in going forward, we are moving toward building a draft animal power network (DAPnet) with membership, newsletter and other “stuff” (perhaps including NEAPFD and ???). We are in the earliest stages of development but “that energy” you feel is the driving force.

Glad you made it back safe and were able to commune with all those good folks “back there”:)

Happy Thanksgiving!

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Have you all ever heard that song before? It’s pretty old (obviously if my dad was singing when I WAS A KID).

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I think the issue we’re realy talking about, and Erika touched on it, is liability. When you consider all the food-borne illness outbreaks in this country, by far and away the majority are from operations that are processing too much material at a time to allow any semblence of good quality control.

BTW – Has anyone ever heard of documented human foodborne illness from fresh veg contminated with horse manure? I never have. And, although I hate to admit it, over the years, I’ve had plenty of poop “find” its way into my mouth. 😮 Can’t remember getting sick from any of it. Poop happens.

The recent Salmonella egg contamination not withstanding, a lot of the foodborne illness problems come from “improper handling” on the part of the consumer. That is most certainly the truth with meat. So, IMHO – even if there was some pathogenic bacteria on lettuce, if the consumer washed the lettuce once before eating it, I can’t imagine that it could have more CFU’s (I’m thinking E. coli Colony Forming Units) than what we currently allow in our drinking water.

Erika – if the risk of contamination from your animals manure is that great (and I don’t believe for a moment that it is), then realistically, you would need to keep any critters, birds included, from either getting in the cattle lot or getting in wherever your veg is. And you can’t allow visitors on the farm w/o proper attire (booties etc). Sounds stupid right? Except that one of the faculty at the local university, a veterinarian no less, believes that the university dairy needs to ban any outreach/tours etc because, and I have to quote him on this – “We all know that kids lick their shoes.”:confused: So those kids could be exposing themselves to dangerous pathogens. WOW. This demonstrates the level of paranoia and misinformation about “safe food”.

Sorry if I got off the topic but IMNSHO – because of what we’ve allowed to happen to the food system in the US (becoming a corporate megalopoly), small farmers now have to be concerned about litigation from a misinformed public. Realistically, I don’t see horse manure as anything to be concerned about.

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@mstacy 22055 wrote:

Geoff,

If you burn the volatiles and keep the charcoal you’ve recovered approximately half the energy content … and kept a big lump of carbon to use however you see fit. You have to decide. Would you rather burn that charcoal (heat your house, water, etc) or keep it? It’s akin to having your cake and eating it too.

Regards,

Matt

Hi Matt,

After thinking about this a bit, it still intrigues me because we’re talking about “efficiency” in two different ways. First, the conventional version of efficiency is getting the most out of the process we’re performing (in this case, combustion for heat) and I agree that getting “the most heat” from a given stick of wood is the most efficient use, IF heat is all you’re after.

But in our whole farm operation(s) we’re (I guess I mean me) trying to make the best use of the resources we have at hand and minimize outside inputs, wherever possible. So, in that situation, is it a better use of wood to get some heat, albeit using more wood overall to attain the same amount of needed heat, but also ending up with charcoal products that can be used to increase the fertility of our garden/farm whatever – thereby reducing the need for purchased inputs. Inputs we would have to outlay capital for if we “efficiently” combusted our wood.

Something to ponder and you’re obviously right. There is no free lunch but you can choose what you want to eat.:)

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Straight/solid bar or jointed? Is there a benefit of one of those over the other?

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@Donn Hewes 22241 wrote:

Carl. That sounds great, Are the bits you bought broken snaffle or straight bar? You are almost ready for “no pressure” driving!

I’m looking at going the “liverpool” route myself and am wondering if the broken snaffle allows some of the “finesse” that Andy speaks of while still having the benefits of a levered bit.

In other words – pros/cons of these 2 types of leverage bits.

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@jenjudkins 22211 wrote:

He flew back yesterday…or at least that was the plan. Maybe he didn’t make it through the security pat down😮

I’m sure he will turn up soon…

Sorry but I have to say “Is that a chainsaw in your pants or are you just happy to see me?”

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