[near horse]

Mark –

Might be time for a trip down to Radio Shack to see what they’ve got. Is lighting the trail a real option? That would be cool. Strobes or blinkers could be a little crazy but back in my youth we used to by these current interrupter discs from RadioShack that fit in a light socket – voila! Home made flashing lights -groovy:cool:

Good luck – don’t you need some snow?

[near horse]

@Countymouse 22611 wrote:

Geoff, here I have to differ with you dramatically. These techniques were developed by ACADEMIC SCIENTISTS (not Monsanto, etc) in the early 80’s. They were ABSOLUTELY NOT created by industry for industry. Big corporations have highjacked this technology and have used it (as big corporations do) to increase their profit margins by focusing on whatever makes the largest profit with the least effort. Genetic engineering is simply another tool, and I place the blame of GE failures on the operator(s), not the tool.

I need to address this point and then I too will let this thread die. Andy, I don’t think I said industry scientists developed this technology but meant that academia did with the full backing/support of industry. In fact, that’s how we “sell” most research proposals – how can this benefit the private sector. Now much of the grant money comes directly from those corporations so the line between academia and industry has been blurred. If we want to consider genetic engineering a tool, that’s fine but then we have to recognize that it’s too risky of a tool to allow those “operators” to have.

[near horse]

As you’re seeing, primary tillage takes some serious HP – look at 6-8 horses on a 3 btm plow. For chisel plows the est. is 10 tractor HP for each shank. And no-till drills, as you say, are incredibly heavy to be able to bust that surface open with discs.

I wonder how much a sort of “preprimarytillage” would help reduce the overall draft. One obvious choice would be using a disc at a 45 degree angle to the direction the rows were planted. Has anyone ever tried a rotary hoe as a preplanting tool – not for busting sod but in soil that is in a production rotation? The corn trash might be too much for it.

We don’t see those hoes out here much but I do recall they’re good for crust-bustin’.

[near horse]

QUOTE=Countymouse;22598]I have a number on thoughts on this issue and this snowy day is a good opportunity to jot them down… I truly appreciate everyones thoughts on this. I do not believe that we are going to really reach a consensus opinion, nor do I see to create one. I simply think that with such a minority of the US population involved in agriculture, I think it is important to understand both sides of these types of issues and try to find common ground between “big ag” and “small ag” when possible. I started thinking about this with the food safety bill, were it seemed the “big ag” wanted to regulate “small ag” and “small ag” wanted to regulate “big ag.” It would have been a more powerful lobby if both big and small ag said “we don’t need regulated” but I digress…

What? What threat is small ag to big ag? None whatsoever that I can see but the “manifest destiny” attitude of big ag continues to destroy the remnants of small ag. Overproduction and reduced prices are just two of the obvious results of big ag dominance and that movement IS what has led us to the huge reduction in the number of farmers you speak of.

Here’s some fun with math that relates to the “natural” versus “man-made” nature of just one crop (corn):

Using North American natives as a model, it is interesting to figure out just how many man-hours have been dedicated to the creation and maintenance of corn. Before Europeans arrives in North American, there were roughly 50 million native Americans here already, many of whom had grown corn for 10,000 years already (give or take). The number of these people involved in farming varies greatly from tribe to tribe and also greatly over history, but for many, corn was the staple of their diet. Given the important of corn in many of these cultures, I would say that at least 1% of the total population would be dedicated to growing it. Really, I wouldn’t be surprised if the true number was 20 times higher than this, but this info seems hard to get a hold of… So, if 500,000 people have been growing and maintaining corn for 10,000 years, that’s over 10 TRILLION man-hours!!! This number assumes that prehistoric Indians work at similar hours per year as modern man, but again, the true number is lost in time. 10 trillion is a hard number to relate to… Some estimate that it took about 4 billion man-hours to build one Egyptian pyramid. So, the amount work done to create and maintain corn to the modern day is roughly equivalent to the work needed to build about 2500 great pyramids!!! Maybe people ought to alter what is commonly considered to be “monuments” to man.

You make some large assumptions that truly inflate the man-hrs calculation. Planting, growing and harvesting corn is not and never was an 8hr/day 365day/yr job but regardless, what is the relevance of man-hrs spent throughout history required to create and maintain corn to genetically engineered corn except to demonstrate how much we have to lose?

Biodiversity:
Tim brings up an excellent point concerning the lack of biodiversity that results from growing only one variety of crop. This is definitely a problem, but I would argue that this is not a problem that is unique to genetically engineered crops. Probably the best example of a lack of genetic variation leading to crop failure is the Irish Potato famine where the vast majority of the potatoes grown were of the “lumper” variety and were uniformly devastated by a blight. This was over a hundred years before genetic engineering…

While bioengineering is obviously not responsible for the Irish potato famine, it is disingenuous to then draw the conclusion that it has no effect on reducing biodiversity. Even if using RR engineered crops only reduces the number of varieties of corn/soybean/beets/canola being planted, by that very act it has reduced biodiversity.

Ecological damage:
Erika brings up the possibility of ecological damage that may result from genetically engineered foods. This is also and good point, but I also don’t think this is a problem unique to genetically engineered crops or even animals. Ancestral cattle (the Auroch) is extinct, as are all four ancestral strains of horse/pony used to create modern horses. The transformation of prairie and forest to grow heirloom crops has occurs for centuries and resulted in great ecological devastation and extinctions through simple habitat destruction. I would argue that this is the fault of the people doing this, not the crops they grow.

Extinction is a natural occurring event when it is in response to natural changes in the environment. Heck, the precursor to the modern horse Eohippus spp became extinct not by the hand of man. I don’t know that the Auroch became extinct because of human selection and breeding – but perhaps. I’ll admit that human history is ripe with species and environments that we’ve wiped out or ruined. But it it seems that you’re admitting that genetically engineered crops/animals DO pose an environmental threat but justify it by saying we’ve destroyed the environment and irreparably altered ecosystems in the past without using genetic engineering so it’s okay. I hope that we’re grown more enlightened than that and can see past who’s signing our paycheck.

Seeming failures of genetic manipulations:
Geoff brings up a good point about the seeming failures of genetic interventions to achieve their intended consequences. Vaccines are a good example. I think a lot of people seem to focus on the examples of vaccines NOT being effective and forget about the times when they are. Nature has a great ability to mutate and adapt, but humans do too. The success of vaccines for a particular disease is intimately linked to this ability. A large complex organism can only evolve slowly, which is why vaccines again large, complex viruses such as smallpox and vaccinia are effective. And they are unquestionable effective, causing the virtual extinction of smallpox off the globe. How much more effective can something be??? Vaccines against viruses that mutate quickly (such as HIV) or are highly stealthy (such as HSV) are less effective. But the failures of HIV vaccines are what people often hear about and give the impression that vaccines don’t work. I would say they do work, just not all this time…

I think you are debating something here that wasn’t even brought up and hope you’re not thinking I believe vaccination programs are a bad thing. In fact, I don’t recall mentioning vaccines except in response to the “banana-vaccine combo” and said that it was unwise to risk foodstuffs to provide a vaccine. I certainly didn’t question the efficacy of vaccines which, as you say, are effective in most cases. The failures I spoke of were related to the safety measures/guarantees provided to the public with regard to released GMO crops.

I think that genetic manipulations of crops have actually been quite successful at achieving their intended results. Having over 90% of the sugar beets grown in the county being round-up ready is, I’m sure, considered a commercial success. Here again, genetic manipulations achieved the intended result. If the intent was not right here (and I don’t think it was) I blame to person/company, not the technique.

That’s the point! We don’t need nor want the “intended results” which could not have been achieved without the technique.

Dependency:
I agree with Carl that the widespread use of genetically engineered crops can lead to dependency of farmers on the seed sources. I also don’t like this, and still have to think about this more, but to some extent, each farmer has a choice to be dependant (use GE seed) or not (use heirloom seed). I definitely choose the independent, traditional and organic path, and I am glad I have the freedom to do so. When in doubt, I prefer to protect the freedom of others to choose a different path

The point is that while farmers may “want” to use heirloom seeds, their availability is becoming more limited with many only saved in small numbers in seed banks. And, more importantly, those heirloom varieties, when planted in the environment, now run the risk of being contaminated with pollen from GE strains. I’m not feeling the freedom you speak of protecting.

Andy –

“Me thinks though dost protesteth too much” You have laid much of the blame for GE crop issues on “the people/company” not “the technique” but I have trouble separating the two. The technique(s) were/are developed to answer questions that are coming from the industry folks who you are blaming for how they use the technique. I think their motives, while something I find loathsome, are certainly no secret.

[near horse]

@blue80 22419 wrote:

I planning on going with garrison creeping foxtail on a large portion of our tillable acreage. Garrison likes all the water it can get (can stand 3 weeks under water without dying) where alfalfa is always trying to drown or burn out in flood irrigated. A couple local guys said they actually drown out the weeds during establishement, especially barley foxtail which is a huge problem here. Horse farmer in Riverton has not plowed his 300acre garrison ground in 30 years!
Garrison will create a nice turf in a few years and spreads by rhizome, it will give us one big hay crop and then lots of rotational grazing. Garrison has high nutrient value when in its early stages, good for saddle horses when its ripe, I’ll broacast a few pounds of alfalfa in certain areas from year to year to get a bit better protein hay for the drafts. With garrison grass I hope that there won’t be a rush to get all cut baled perfectly on time, which means its more flexible for the horses…. Also good steady market for it at higher prices than alfalfa here; If it is harvested with the seed on, cattle guys love to feed it in alkali wet, low spots, as the hoof action in frosty ground plants the garrison seed perfectly.
Best, Kevin

Hi Kevin,

We have Garrison foxtail here too and, as you and Wes have said, it’s pretty tough stuff – grows in standing water and nearly indestructable even w/ heavy hoof traffic on muddy ground. The problem(s) we see are
1) it starts to head out while it’s in standing water when haying is still a far off thought so the quality is already dropping (I guess you could graze it during this time to try and keep it vegetative).
2) once it starts to get mature our cattle are not interested in eating it.

I’ve thought about going to meadow brome – rhizomatous grass, spreads well, good yields …..

As far as seeding alfalfa into the Garrison, where we are, the soil conditoins that are good for Garrison (wet cold feet) are not good for alfalfa (they don’t do well in standing water).

Just my experiences but do appreciate what you’re doing. Keep posting your progress.

[near horse]

One issue w/ machine milked cows is that they’ve been selected for shorter teats – good for the teat cups not as easy for hand milkers (not to say it can’t be done just shorter teats). Also, as you mention, an extended breeding interval will get a cow culled (if she doesn’t breed back after “x” number of days – 30, 45 – don’t remember) but those cows are usually fine for a family cow.

We see a lot of cows leaving the string at age 4 or 5. Still some good years in those cows.

Erika, around here I think it might be hard to find a grown beef cow that’s tractable enough to hand milk and for sale. Obviously, you could raise one.

[near horse]

Sorry but I don’t even buy into the “theory” of GMO development. Why should we be screwing with the genetics of a banana to administer a vaccine? If you want to administer a vaccine, then isolate purify and administer it but don’t risk food in the process. That’s really short-sighted. Nature has eternity to adapt to what we’re up to, not necessarily in our favor. For example, those RR corn guys are already seeing Roundup resistant weeds in those fields where they’d been using RR corn. Yet Monsanto and friends continued to push RR alfalfa approval – and, as far as I know, received it! Stupid. That’s my problem w/ the whole “gene jockey” mentality.

But, I believe that what many consider to be “the greatest evolutionary coup” – the human brain – will be the undoing of humanity itself. As a species, we continue to alter our environment and the regulators so as to increase our numbers ad infinitum. Kind of like the blob. Merry Christmas!

[near horse]

@mitchmaine 22469 wrote:

sorry about that one,geoff. poor attempt at humor, i guess. please forgive me.

Aww Mitch – Please, you don’t need to apologize at all! I did see the “dark humor” by posting this here. Your sentiments regarding DAP are what’s important and I’m glad you started this thread so we could hear what you feel.

[near horse]

I guess I would rank low on the number of attempts to login while DAP was down because I attributed it to my crummy dial-up connection and overall service. In this case, ignorance was bliss (at least low stress).

I would also like to add in my thanks for this site – to me it is like Alice going through the looking glass into a huge new world. Through this site I have learned so much and met so many great people it’s hard to imagine where I’d be without this place. Thank you, everyone.

I also know through PMs that many across the pond also “suffer from the DAP addiction”, many even went through some temporary withdrawals when the site was down. So while we are separated by geography, there is a strong will to keep this alive and MANY are willing to contribute in whatever means they can. Just ask.

BTW – mitch, why was this in the memorium category? It made me think it was dead.

[near horse]

“We had a “spook-in-place” occur yesterday …… Both boys spooked severely, as can be expected; but they didn’t bolt.”

Hey Moonshadow,

Glad to see you’re still in the “donkey business”:cool:

As I read this thread again it brought up a question in my mind – is being startled the same as spooking? IMHO, it’s certainly a natural response to get jumpy for a second or two after some birds flush (like you said, it startles us as well) but to me, if they 1) don’t try to run off 2) settle back in short order, I’m pretty happy with the whole scene. It’s about as much as I can expect.

What do you think?

[near horse]

We have a few Oberhasli’s (formerly swiss alpines I think) and agree that the milk is great. Even 2 does milking can keep you “hopping” if you don’t drink that much milk. Like Jen, we did cheese and yogurt.

IMHO – strong flavor is usually related to diet.

[near horse]

“….. some knuckle-head hunting brown when he should be hunting horns”

I like mitchmaine’s comment about Penny putting hunter orange flagging on the halters – never crossed my mind. We’ve had guys road hunting pull up on a foggy morning looking for the moose they swear they saw from across the way. They were seeing the neighbors horse. Some guys!

[near horse]

Rambling? Mitch, you just gave me more “new to me” information in a paragraph than I’ve gotten in a while! Thanks and keep on informing!

[near horse]

Hi Larry,

I’m still pretty green but you know the saying about “the best laid plans of mice and men …..” I forget the rest but essentially, you do your best and sh*t happens, still. Even to the best teamsters. I think how they respond is what makes them good teamsters. In your case, what could you do once you catch up with ’em? They’re not likely gonna get the association between running off and some punishment 10 minutes later – so you probably did the best thing. Go back to makin’ him do what you want him to do.

There’s just days for all of us and we are rarely privy to those bad days other people have, so we think it’s us alone. Sounds like you done good.

[near horse]

@mitchmaine 22393My understanding was that bobsleds were like lobsterboats. Unique to their locale. A bunch of blacksmiths all making sleds on their own patterns designed to fit the country where they came from. I have a bunch of sleds and irons that are kinda the same but all different. I’ve rebuilt some but always backwards. mitch[/QUOTE wrote:

I’ve been wondering about different styles of bobsled for different uses. Some of those logging rigs are beasts! (like Carl’s and maybe even those you’ve got Mitch). Really heavy duty (and heavy) to take some serious abuse. Others, like this one I’m going up to look at (below), aren’t as stout. Also, some use chain(s) btwn front and back bobs while others have a sort of tongue. I’ve only recently become hooked on bobsleds so don’t know diddily!

What are your experiences? Just local variations, different needs or both?

[Author]

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