[near horse]

IMHO – the “market” likes dictators and totalitarian regimes. While brutal to their people, they make investors comfortable with their stability with perhaps even a deal for us. And, that’s why we have a history of supporting folks like Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Hosni Mubarik, Pinochet in Chile, – even the often touted “most liberal” president in the 20th century, FDR, supported the dictator Somoza in Nicaragua and is quoted saying “yes, he’s an SOB but he’s our SOB!” That says a lot.

BTW – I heard a radio report that some air cargo planes from Israel landed last week in Cairo or nearby – they were providing anti- demonstration and crowd control disbursement equipment like armoured water cannons etc. How crazy is that?

[near horse]

These megaload jokers are now stopped waiting for anticipated bad weather to pass – they need roads with exposed pavement from fog line to fog line. And who’d expect snow in the Rockies in Feb at 4 -5000 ft elevation? Lewis and Clark did but not an oil company in the 21st century? Ha ha ha. This is why nobody trusts these guys.

I should note that Idaho State Patrol carded a number of folks who were monitoring this clusterf… because they said there was a threat of terrorism:eek: Malicious harassment is the correct term. Unless ….. my real name is Osama bin Pritchard – hoo hoo hoo haa haa haa!

Sharp curve slows megaload; new plan needed for next load
Second leg ends at Kooskia after some traffic delayed by as long as 59 minutes by Elaine Williams, Lewiston Tribune, Feb. 4, 2011
Traffic was delayed by as much as 59 minutes in the second day of the three-week journey … The extended delays surfaced as the supersized cargo went around an extremely sharp curve between Greer and Kamiah on U.S. Highway 12, said Adam Rush, a spokesman for the Idaho Transportation Department.

The oversized load is supposed to allow traffic to pass every 10 to 15 minutes. Some delays on the Wednesday-Thursday leg were as small as four minutes, but 10 delays were 16 to 59 minutes, Rush said. ITD is requiring a new plan for getting through the most difficult spot before it will allow a second load to depart Monday, …

The load … arrived at Kooskia by about 5:15 a.m. Thursday, marking the end of the second leg of the trip that went less smoothly than the first, Rush said.

[near horse]

i didn’t mean for you to do it – just inquiring. I’ll send something out if you want – just folks who are on the board?

Jen, Lisa, Carl, Geoff, Mark, Brad, Erika

[near horse]

I posted a long response/commentary on this yesterday but somehow lost it – probably ’cause I stayed up all night Tuesday/Wed helping some folks “monitor” the first megaload to make sure it was in compliance with the agreed upon regulations. One of which says that a traffic delay is only defined as a complete cessation or stoppage of movement NOT a significant reduction in travel speed (In other words – 1 mph on a designated 60 mph hwy is NOT recognized as a delay).

I have to hurry as I’m going to visit a farmer who grows camlina (like mustard) and uses some of the seed to power his equipment (processes the seed of course). So, for a really cool picture depicting the plight here in ID, check out the picture made for these T-shirts. I’m not asking you to buy one – that’s up to you but I really enjoyed that picture! To see the size of these units (675,000 pounds , 28 ft wide, 200 ft long w/ 100 tires under them) you can go to the website http://www.fightinggoliath.org – I probably mentioned this before.

http://www.cedarcreekcreations.com/pages/nobigoilpermits.html

[near horse]

If my horses are out on pasture, they won’t give hay much of a look at all.

It’s my understanding that the new growth of spring grass is highly digestible (really not mature enough to have much real fiber/coarseness to it) and overconsumption by hungry/greedy horses can lead to founder. We, like I imagine most of you, turn out the first few times after the horses have tanked up on some hay. For the Amish, waiting to turn out could be related to a number of factors in how they’re managing their farming system.

[near horse]

If your talking about painting the pawl holder then it would have to be what would be considered a hub on “modern” wheels. The inside of the pawl holders is where the ratchet pawls fit w/ their springs – but the outside shows up as the “hub part” in the center of your wheel. That’s how I interpret it.

[near horse]

Thanks Jason. I didn’t mean to put you on the spot – you’re the only person I know owns and has used the treadmill. I’m trying to think of unique ways the treadmill and horses could be used on the farm and integrated into the system. I’ll try contacting the manufacturer!

[near horse]

Carl,

I do see and empathize with much what you’re saying. The issue of scale for one thing. I can imagine a system in which there’s a “basic fee” for using the mobile unit and that “fee” would be a much larger proportion of the income generated from one steer slaughtered vs 10 steers and leading to the “slippery slope” of bigger and more to spread the cost out.

In addition, I’m always about 1 second away from punching someone in the mouth when they throw up the term “hobby farm”.:mad: and base it on gross receipts or land used. I just attended an oilseed/biodiesel workshop and there were a lot of “farmers” w/ big land, big tractors, and big checkbooks that I consider to be “hobby farmers” – they don’t actually farm the ground (hired man does that stuff). But those SOB’s sure understood every nuance of the govt subsidy farm plans etc – hardly qualifies as farming.

Please accept my apologies (to all) if I’ve sounded callous to your concerns as that was truly not my intention. I had/have hope that this mobile system could help serve a need for small producers and keep the “nay sayers” satisfied (and silence them for a while). As more discussion goes on, more points emerge that need to be addressed. Including hanging carcasses, custom/retail cutting etc.

As often is the case with legislation, if you can get ahead of it (like it appears you and Rural Vermont are trying to do) and try to guide it, you have a “better chance” of ending up with something you can live with versus trying to change it after it’s been approved. So, some questions that come to mind are: if there were to be a smaller farm exemption:

1) Would you be willing to put a number slaughtered/yr (or whatever) limit on it? Like the 1000 birds thing.

2) Would you be willing to allow some oversight by VAA that there is some compliance with the requirements (whatever they end up being) of the smaller farm exemption? Do they do that with the 1000 birds to make sure you’re not processing more than that?

3) Ther might even need to be some type of documentation that you have “smaller farm” status to allow the exemption etc.

My point is that you make a very good case for the very small producer not being able to really benefit from the mobile unit idea (without serious modifications) – which was supposed to be beneficial to those particular farms. But as you well know, if you’re trying to negotiate a change or exemption etc, you need to have something you’re willing to offer up (those examples above are just a simple few quick ideas, although they might not be the most palatable. More paperwork.)

I’m still completely baffled at the custom cut/retail thing. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

There are some questions that come to mind here that I can’t answer. Like how do those guys sell exotic meat legally? We have some elk and bison guys near us and I know they tried to use the University meat lab (USDA inspected …) with disasterous results. Elk don’t fit in a cattle knock box correctly and not many facilities are ready for bison activity. So how do they get around it? Or emu, ostrich …… I don’t know but it might demonstrate other places that exemptions have been applied.

Best of luck.

[near horse]

Hi Russel,

I have Haying w/ Horses and it has a chapter on mowers rather than a whole book. Other chapters cover rakes, stackers, loose hay systems, buckrakes, baling (I think)…..

Anyway, I bought this book about 2 months before the Mower book was released because I was trying to rebuild a McD #6 and needed some guidance.

What do you need to know? The basics on refurbishing/evaluating a mower are in the Haying book – PM me if you want and I can try to scan those pages and e-mail them to you – most of the descriptions are either #9 or JD #4 but a lot of it can be used to understand other mowers. Just depends on what you’re looking for. Plus for more specific stuff – try e-mailing our mower man Donn Hewes 🙂 He’s as good as any book!

All the best.

[near horse]

@dominiquer60 24264 wrote:

Carl,
I know that in NYS if you want to use a mobile unit you have to first have the animal USDA Slaughtered and then return the carcass to the mobile unit to butcher, this would not solve the on farm problem.

Erika

Who in the hell ever came up with the idea that the units would be for cutting up sides of beef/pork/lamb? As I said before, THE NUMBER ONE SELLING POINT on these units originally was NO TRANSPORT & ON FARM KILL AND PROCESS. The guy I mentioned in Walla Walla had one of the first units in the US and used it as stated above.

The problem is even with a 40ft semi box, space is tight and probably not enough to go from on the hoof to retail cut in that size space. Another point to consider (and I didn’t think of this when I was answering Carl’s post) is hanging carcass storage. Most sides hang for 3 days min (that’s in high production commercial plants) before cutting. 😮

I think humane transportation of food animals (including horses for slaughter – if that ever gets restarted) is going to be a big issue for producers in the near future. They’re not bales of hay but do get treated as such. Throw in some higher fuel costs and …. well you can guess.

[near horse]

@Carl Russell 24259 wrote:

You are perplexed by my stance because you think I said I was against Mobile slaughtering units. I have endorsed them.

Although I didn’t feel your support all that evident in your OP to SFJ, it is the other portion of your posts that I find perplexing. I’m trying to “make room” in my head to understand the story issue. Do your customers require that or is it part of what makes you unique? And how much damage does the mobile setup do to your story? Those are questions that might be driving your opinion on this issue and I guess that would be between you and your customers although it sounds like you’re not hurting for folks interested in what you’ve got to offer.

I was merely pointing out that before anybody endorses these things wholeheartedly, think about what is being overlooked.

Carl, I’ll admit that I believe the units are a good opportunity and have made it clear in my posts but I feel you did push a little more the other way than just endorsing others to think about what is being overlooked (which is still unclear to me).

Obviously I don’t expect, nor need, anybody to agree with me. Most people are very disconnected from the type of relationship that I have with my food. I don’t expect them, or you, to be able to understand, or endorse it. Just be aware that I am not the only one.

This is what perplexes me right here. I’ll bet everyone is disconnected from the type of relationship you have with your food. And we are disconnected from their experience/relationship with their food as well.

Being able to kill an animal and sell it to an informed party is a part of a manner of food sovereignty that I think we need to protect, and while mobile slaughter units can fit into that equation, they should not preclude slaughter without.

What is lost? An animal, raised in whatever story or relationship one chooses, is killed, on farm and sold to an informed party. No offense but when terms like food sovereignty get bandied about, I start to think either paranoid or tax evasion by flying under the radar. Nobody is going to take away your right to produce food.

I would love to see more mobile slaughtering units. I would love to see them invigorate local food systems. Moreover I want to see people able to secure food from their local producers.

I also want to see free enterprise direct sale farming that is unregulated at a certain scale. This is a huge part of food sovereignty. If we continue to allow even the simplest, and most archaic form of food commerce to be regulated, and somehow mobile units play a role in that, then I don’t want to see them used that way.

I am not talking about people feeding themselves. I am talking about people buying dead animals direct from the farm. To some it may not matter who does the killing, but to me it does. To a growing number of people, it does. If having a trailer mounted slaughtering facility owned by six or more farms in our area allowed us to engage in this kind of commerce, then that I would consider. These are not the units Lynn was describing. These are not the units that are being proposed, or allowed.

The unit I toured and experienced was at a direct marketing operation called “Thundering Hooves Farm” operated by Joel Huesby near Walla Walla WA. Google him – he’d be willing to discuss the whole system. It was a semi box, not stainless steel, mostly washable dairy panels. You bring the animal(s) up to the back of the trailer, kill them and host them up into the rig (winch). If I recall, you end up with sides, not primals or retail cuts and can handle about 6 hd per day. This unit was being promoted as a mobile unit able to go to the farm where the live animals were – zero hauling of live animals.

The units that are being promoted are $250,000 stainless steel and refrigerated 18 wheelers, that will not be traveling from farm to farm, allowing farmers to kill their own animals. This initiative is designed to shorten the hauling distances, and to alleviate scheduling conflicts at stationary facilities, by putting slaughterhouses where there are none, and not tying them down in communities where the demand is not sufficient to support the economy of scale of a brick and mortar facility.

Actually in VT, for any meat to be purchased by a consumer the animal must be slaughtered in an inspected facility. That could be a mobile unit. I’ve looked into this, but in Vermont for an animal to be custom cut (facility inspected meat is not), it has to be owned by the person before it is killed, and it must be killed on the owner’s property. So I would have to sell the animal to my customer, transport it to their home, take the mobile unit over there, and then kill it for them.

This is exactly why they want to have some sort of regulation. What you’re saying is the result of a patchwork response to the “buying shares” thing. The mobile slaughter unit could be used to negate the whole “whose property issue”. I think you would carry a lot more credibility with the powers that be (VAA) regarding custom cutting and ownership if there was some level of continuity and inspection, like they’re shooting for (it seems to me) with the mobile units.

The proposal that I support is that my sales agreement with the consumer says that they own the animal and have contracted with me to raise and slaughter it, allowing that contract to determine ownership, and acknowledging that the animal will be killed on the land of the raiser, not necessarily owner. The second part of that is that then the animals be allowed to be slaughtered under the exemption that is already afforded to owners of animals, to have it killed in any manner they see fit.

I hope you can sell them on it.

I really appreciate the feed-back and questions.

Sorry if I’m obtuse and abrasive. Tired and can’t find my words right now (or ever).Carl

Too dumb to figure out the multi-post function:(

[near horse]

Hi Jason,

Since you’re the “man” with the treadmill I’ve got a cople of questions for you. When you’re running the splitter, do you know what the PTO shaft speed is (approx)? Is it running 540RPM at a stiff walk for the horses?

I’m wondering about using the treadmill PTO to drive a press to press oil from some oilseeds. Not sure how to decide if it would work direct drive or if some sort of gearing would be needed. The presses run at pretty low RPM – like 40-60 per minute but it might be a high torque type of load.

Any thoughts?

[near horse]

@Carl Russell 24250 wrote:

I meant that my survival is not limited by a need to expand, and I have not purposefully TRIED to expand, but I have been getting an increasing interest every year….. and yes I am, and have been, selling meat illegally…. and yes there is a huge illegal meat economy all across US now, precisely because these regulation don’t recognize that people are feeding their communities in this manner.

They don’t enforce the rules because they know they couldn’t stem the tide, and if they do acknowledge that it is happening then the regulatory system that is supposed to prevent it would come under serious scrutiny. They are really in a bind. They want to pretend that meat production at my level does not exist… which is the inertia you mention.

The question about sloppy slaughter and meat quality is a red herring. Look at the meat that comes through the inspected system:eek:. The point is not whether a cleaner facility can provide better product. The question is how do we address the fact that thousands of people just in Vermont are feeding themselves from meat produced like this?

.

I think we can add to the exemption a statutory liability, similar to the equine liability law that states that any person engaging in an equine event must accept their own liability for accident or injury because of the inherent dangers of such activities.

If I could sell meat to customers who contract with me to raise and slaughter on the farm half and whole animals, with express acknowledgment of the potential inherent risks, with statute to back that up, then we could alleviate a huge burden from USDA and VAA, and let them deal with producers who grow for larger wholesale and pre-cut retail markets, where their oversight is needed.

My intention when writing this was to highlight these points, as they are often not considered by mobile slaughter advocates.

Carl

I understand your need to tell a story but I can’t even imagine that Cargill, Tyson and friends are concerned in the least that your story (or others like you) is hurting their bottom line. They’re biggest concerns are related to marketing in Asia and how to meet the regulation/inspection requirements to allow them access to those markets. If, in trying to meet those international requirements, the meat industry takes away your opportunity to direct market and tell your story (like the National Animal Identification Program was proposing to do) – I agree that there’s a fight to fight. But mobile animal slaughter doesn’t strike the same note to me.

Perhaps I don’t know how it’s being presented in VT. Who will/can own the unit? Here, it’s anyone that wants to build or buy one – co-op or a couple farmers or whatever. Who can slaughter? Anyone as far as I can tell. I know that the allow religious guys with ittle knowledge of which side of the knife is sharp to carry out kosher kills.

“The question about sloppy slaughter and meat quality is a red herring. Look at the meat that comes through the inspected system. The point is not whether a cleaner facility can provide better product.”

I wouldn’t say it’s a red herring. Anyone slaughtering and processing an animal, be it one or a thousand, can potentially screw up or end up with an animal that has an abcessed liver etc. It can happen. Just seen more often when a plant kills 2000 in a day rather than 2 or 20.

“The question is how do we address the fact that thousands of people just in Vermont are feeding themselves from meat produced like this?”
I think the mobile slaughter IS trying to address just this fact. Animals can be killed at their homes, by their owners.

Also, while there may be a blind eye currently towards “illegal” farm slaughter and sales, I wouldn’t be surprised if that blind eye disappeared once mobile slaughter plants are available. The argument now is there is no option but later on, there will be no excuses.

IMHO – there’s no way that USDA (and likely VAA) would ever allow someone to “waive their rights” regarding buying meat without some oversight/inspections. For them to support that option exposes them to legal actions as well.

I really am perplexed by your stand on this Carl. If it’s the money (although based on what you’ve said I really don’t think that’s it at all), most of your clientele would pickup the difference without a second thought, I’m sure.

Well I hope you can figure out a way to make this work for you.

If I can ask (and you can PM me if you’d rather or say no comment), how much meat do you handle for others annually. I only saw your 2 milk cows and a steer although I do remember you mentioned a hog or two.

On a positive note – I doubt that there will ever be a movement toward regulating slaughter for your own use.

All the best and have a good weekend.

[near horse]

Carl,

I have to say you tell a good story but also need to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the motive(s) behind the mobile slaughter proposal(s). Believe me, most USDA and state inspectors would be glad to not have mobile slaughter operations become available. It would be a lot easier for them to go to 5 or 10 major facilities with decent parking, a cafeteria and restrooms then to travel hither and yon to be present at the slaughter of 2 steers here and 5 over there. This system is viewed as concession to the demands of the small producers and local consumers rather than a power move by big govt.

I don’t see how processing your 18 month old Jersey in a trailer parked at your place versus in your barn or pasture changes your narrative. While trying to maintain our independence as small farmers/loggers we’ve all made concessions to working within the constraints of a modern society – whether it’s driving motorized vehicles to transport goods using federal, state and county built and maintained highways, seeking grant money from others to help support our causes or using the internet to convey our ideas and find information.

Carl, I have no doubt that what you do and how you process your animals results in a good and safe product but, having seen the mobile slaughter unit at a nearby farm, I can’t see how it isn’t a positive option in an arena (small local food production) that’s been lobbied against pretty hard. Perhaps in the future, there might be some opportunity to do away with the need for the slaughter unit but there will likely always be some form of accountability (licensing or something) more than just market forces. Remember, we do require that people prove they can operate a motor vehicle safely.

Funny – while you see this as a negative infringement on your personal freedom to operate, I see it as a positive in allowing consumers access to humanely raised and slaughtered animal products, raised in their own region even. The need for regulation comes from what I see as the negative – people. People will cheat an unregulated system (consumers ….) if they aren’t held accountable – it’s all around us everyday.

It’s been said before, with so many battles to wage, one must pick and choose wisely when to fight and when to compromise. I see this as one place where compromise looks pretty good.

[near horse]

I think your both right .

J-L It’s a pretty vicious cycle to be in. Once you’ve committed to it, it’s hard to see how to get off.

JAC – it does have to end sometime but it’s like the “not in my backyard” syndrome. Politicians will cut subsidies for crops not grown in their own states – otherwise it’s political suicide. The guys with the best complaint here are the animal producers (except for dairies). They don’t have a floor price and no subsidies – while they have to buy commodities to feed that are supported. Crazy stuff.

[Author]

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