[mitchmaine]

hey john, my understanding is that the top 5 or 6″ of soil, or whatever you’ve ever plowed is disturbed soil and can be compacted by further use with a tractor or implement until you plow or harrow(or disturb it) again. your plow is a shovel and there is a flat pan where you stopped plowing that is soil from the dawn of time that no one has ever touched. it is harder than the gates of hell and can’t be compacted. it already has been by time. a chisel plow will reach down and scratch at that pan and give serious rainfall a place to go besides drowning out your crop. a spring harrow set real hard can bust it up a little. i guess once you have disturbed that layer, it is forever broken and can be compacted but not back to its original state. thats my belief on it.

mitch

[mitchmaine]

john, i also noticed the plow harness consisted of a collar, backpad or saddle and chains for tugs. very simple rigs. and how do you drive a horse with jerk lines? too many questions. i know, but i sure would like to be able to talk with your and my grand dad again.

your friend, mitch

[mitchmaine]

@jac 21293 wrote:

Mitch British shafts have a slide arangement that takes a ridge chain over the cart saddle on 2 wheeled carts. 2 draw chains, as they were called over here, went from the collar to staples towards the rear of the shaft. A hook on the front of the slider took the trace chain from an extra horse hooked up front. In the picture I have modified the original set up by using the staple that used to take the short chain from the collar, and used that for my quarter straps. a hook on the back of the slider took the original breeching chain..
John

hi john, i have a book here, a gift from a friend, that is filled with photographs of farming in scotland and england in the early half of the last century. and it shows just what you are describing. over and over. clearly the way a horse was hitched single in shafts. but, and this is the interesting part, teams of two or three, on a pole or in loose rigging, are hitched into double and triple trees. every time. very curious, that they obviously knew the principles of evening out a load, but wouldn’t do it with a single animal. what do you make of that?

and jamie. are you still there? i assume you are from north america? and if so, how did a very local way of rigging a horse in a cart, make it’s way over here and not get used but once in your father-in-laws case?????? what do you make of that?

interesting, don’t you think? let me know what you think.

thanks again, mitch

i saw a rotting set of team sleds out behind a barn once. the pole and roll were just about gone, but had no signs of any type of a hitch for an evener, but there was one single tree hooked to one of the runners, suggesting that the other might have been the same and that each horse was hooked seperately to a runner. never saw it before or since, and decided that it didn’t catch on for whatever reason. in the last two thousand years, who knows how many trys were made to pull a load? you have to think the ones that lasted were and are still the best methods.

[mitchmaine]

@Carl Russell 21298 wrote:

Bring a melon to share.

Carl

rain or shine, see you there.

mitch

[mitchmaine]

@jac 21293 wrote:

Mitch British shafts have a slide arangement that takes a ridge chain over the cart saddle on 2 wheeled carts. 2 draw chains, as they were called over here, went from the collar to staples towards the rear of the shaft. A hook on the front of the slider took the trace chain from an extra horse hooked up front. In the picture I have modified the original set up by using the staple that used to take the short chain from the collar, and used that for my quarter straps. a hook on the back of the slider took the original breeching chain..
John

thanks john, before i saw your photo, it seemed like alot of strain on the shafts with all the draft coming from there. seemed snug enough with the horse held fore and aft. but your picture shows a much stouter shaft equal to the force, and whos gonna argue with a thousand years of technology, right? best wishes, mitch

[mitchmaine]

jamie, hey there and welcome. in that second group of pictures ( the one of the nose of the sled), it looks like a singletree hooked to the nose of the sled to me. can’t see it too clearly. am i mistaken?
mitch

[mitchmaine]

@jac 21281 wrote:

Yep I would agree with your father in law.. we have exactly the same set up over here in Scotland. The top chains went to the collar and the lower staples took the breeching… Works well…tho i would second Andy on the singletree .. I converted my shafts on our hay turner and it works a treat with the western breeching harness we use now.. look forward to the finished article Jamie….
John

hey john, does your scot harness have shaft loops to secure the shafts? and do the chains go to the hames? more details if you would. thanks, mitch

[mitchmaine]

looks like they did it again. wish i was twenty years younger. the future looks great.

mitch

[mitchmaine]

@Dave G 21192 wrote:

Thanks Geoff, John, and”George”. I had full intentions of building a 3 wheeler but I have had the opportunity to ride on one and it was an awful rough ride in the field. It seemed the small wheel in front amplified every bump it hit. It would be great to hear what outhers prefer – 2wheels or 3.

hi dave, if i remember right, it seemed lynn millers forecart had a pretty good sized caster wheel. and i’m wondering if the size of that wheel might smooth out the ride. i’ve also never ridden on a three wheeled cart so take it with a grain of salt. mitch

[mitchmaine]

thanks ed and matt, i did manage to get it under the ground in time for an inch and a half of rain. it was so green, matt, and soken now that burning is probably no use here in the northeast but i’ll remember what you’ve said. i harrowed it within an inch of its life and probably the light rains the day before the big winds knocked it down enough to plowe it down. now i’m trying to harrow it enough to bring up most of the moisture to drill it. i may have to broadcast and harrow it in, anyway you look at it, this peice of ground and the horses got more than its share of a workout. each plan seems to have to change for some new reason so now i have no plan and things are going better. the only thing we are missing is snow and i expect it daily. best wishes all, and thanks for the help.

your friend, mitch

[mitchmaine]

hi bob,
we may have met once. fifteen years ago or so at common ground fair in windsor, maine. we talked a long time on the subject of draft horses as i recall. the only reason i remember is that directly afterwards, you had an article in small farm journal and did several times after that. if that is so, welcome to the site. good to hear from you again.
if none of this sounds remotely familiar, welcome anyway, always good to have more imput.

mitch

[mitchmaine]

good one, charly. there must be a youtube video on every subject known to man. thanks.

[mitchmaine]

@jac 21024 wrote:

Can any of you oxen owners point me in the right direction for a web page relating to the numbers and usage of oxen in around 1750-1800… primarily in Scotland.. The reason I ask is I am starting a project at Robert Burns cottage in Alloway.. his birthplace. The project revolves round the Clydesdale horse and we are planning workshops around the horses role in agriculture at that time. Eventualy we will reinstate the small field at the rear of the cottage into the market garden the Burns father had at the time of the birth of the poet… however I have an idea for another avenue of thought… could it be possible that oxen were the power source at that time. Burns father was very poor and horses cost a fortune at that time.. also the stalls in the cottage seem very small so I wondered if it was possible that oxen were the power source… thank you in advance people….
John

hey john, isn’t there some kind of written record like crofters records, or tithing records, domesday book or some sort of agricultural historical report of the time that might give you some clue to the answer to your question? i know photographs don’t go quite that far back, but a picture is sometimes worth many words on the subject. good luck with your quest and let us know what you might come up with. and also what your notion is or other avenue of thought as you say.

best wishes and hope you are getting airline tickets for your visit to tunbridge. times getting short.

mitch

[mitchmaine]

hey andy, don’t get me wrong. i ain’t hiding out here. i usually get more joy working them than i do going to a fair. thats all. sorry for the misunderstanding.
mitch

[mitchmaine]

@dominiquer60 21130 wrote:

I understand too, I was in a similar situation in August at our county fair. I was returning to the Draft Pavilion from the Cattle Show Ring with my yearling team. There was quite the crowd and I was doing my best to avoid any hairy situations. We had to pass by a very active Pony Show Ring with many spectators. The pony people are very easy to rile up and one had a nasty spill earlier requiring an ambulance. A golf cart caused us to pause for a moment and my steer Dick decides to call out. I gently tap his muzzle to redirect his attention to me and walk on. A voice from behind, “I can’t believe that lady just hit that cow because it was crying.” Not knowing who said that, I just replied over my shoulder, “There has been one ambulance call already today for this pony show, and I don’t need my animal to cause another kid to fall off and get hurt, surely that would be worse than any tap on the nose,” and then we finished walking back to our stabling. I find often people that are quick to point out something that they think is “wrong” often have no solid basis for such opinions, and probably have some mentally tormented pet at home that they think is spoiled.

Erika

hey erika, we live at the end of a long driveway at the end of a dead end road, and our horses seldom leave the farm.
that is because of what you are saying. i don’t mind people having differing opinions, even when they don’t have any experience to back up how they feel. but i do mind the anger they seem to have that all don’t feel as passionate as they do about their own thoughts.
so i try to stay out of their way. i totally expect someone to try and tell me i can’t work horses any more because of cruel practices. imagine making a horse sweat. criminal.

mitch

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