[Ed Thayer]

@Tim Harrigan 31584 wrote:

Ed, in one sense I agree that we are about one year behind. In other words, we should be applying now for funding for events planned for 2013. One the other hand, I think we have already gone to the well many times (the well being the teamsters) and I am concerned that well may dry up. There are a lot of facets to this issue that should be examined so I would prefer to continue the discussion well before the next P&E meeting. Email or this site would be OK, or maybe we need to convene a special conference call devoted to that topic. Any thoughts? How about you other P&E members? Maybe it seems like I am overly focused on details, but in my experience the old saying that the devil is in the details couldn’t be more true in this case.

I am all in favor of a conference call before the next official P&E Meeting. What does everyone else want to do?

ED

[Ed Thayer]

very jealous 😎

[Ed Thayer]

@bradley 31586 wrote:

If this project does happen, are all the horses and teamsters accounted for? It sounds like Brad J. would have his team there, John ,single or team, and Jen, single or team, and Ed, single or team. Would a few of us want to be there, without horses, for moving equipment and loading sleds, etc. ?

Good Morning all,

These are some of the thoughts rolling around in my empty head regarding pay, reimbursement for teamsters and who is involved in any event or workshop. To be clear, my interpretation of the teamster pay issue is we propose to pay for professional services and not reimburse a teamster for their time.

If DAP NET is now proposing to pay teamsters as professionals, and that is really what we are talking about, who will decide on which teamster is involved. I can see the potential issue of “why is he always picked” or ” Why was I not offered an opportunity to look at the job.”

What I do in my line of work as a professional is develop a scope of services for a particular task. I then submit that scope for what we call “request for proposals” or RFP. Interested parties then have an opportunity to investigate the job, develop an estimate, quote or bid and submit it back to me.

It promotes discussion, better pricing and a fair mechanism for several contractors to submit an RFP.

If we find teamsters that are willing to do a certain task for less or no money, than DAP NET is the overall winner. I see these types of projects no different than hosting a logging workshop and I am concerned about DAP NET becoming an agent for teamsters.

I am not being cynical or criticizing any teamsters, but only trying to look at this issue with an open mind and from a different perspective.

I bet you are all wondering now , why you asked for my help. :p

ED

[Ed Thayer]

@bradley 31585 wrote:

The new event should be Jay Fisher’s instead of Bailey.

Thanks for the correction, Jay Fishers wood bee is the one I was thinking of.

Ed

[Ed Thayer]

Tim,

This thought came to me after discussing all the budget issues with the rest of the Board and Reeva. Reeva asked if we had any funding sources right now for our proposed events. I said no and expressed my concern with that very question.

Again, I am very concerned about our ability as a young group, organization to raise the necessary funds through sponsorship or grants and to pull off an event where we are expected to pay several thousand dollars for teamster participation.

I do not want my concern to be misinterpreted because I think it is important to pay for those professional services. I just need to wrap my head around how we will get there. So I thought we could talk about the possibility of structuring this years events around volunteer teamsters and just sticking to the mileage reimbursement. This would not apply to the Lincoln Woods salvage project in my opinion.

These are my thoughts and by no means those of the entire BOD or P&E. Others may or may not agree. I am simply suggesting we get our feet under us and then decide how to approach next years events.

Ed

[Ed Thayer]

@Tim Harrigan 31558 wrote:

Sorry if I seem a little slow on the uptake here. I understand they are asking for professional services and I also do not think we should waiver on the rates. By asking what are they asking for I was wondering if they expect the teamsters to donate their services, or if they are asking DAPNet to carry the teamsters costs?

At this point, I think the forest service has no budget with the exception of reimbursing mileage. So they are looking for teamsters to donate, The PE committee have suggested paying teamsters for this work and that requires us to fund it somehow.
I think we should spend some time on this at the next meeting so we can all be clear. I too find it difficult to get my views expressed in writing.

Ed

[Ed Thayer]

@Tim Harrigan 31557 wrote:

Ed, yes, I saw that and it was clear. My thought was that maybe we needed a revised budget that included the costs for developing the educational component (filming, etc) and any other components that the P&E thought were important beyond what John estimated for moving the materials and related costs. So the revised budget would reflect the costs for accomplishing their goals and our goals. Now we are both leaning into the yoke and potential funding organizations or conservation groups can see how the project be accomplished and have lasting impact that justifies their investment.

Tim,

I see what you’re saying, that is a good suggestion. The forest service and DAP NET can incorporate all their goals while providing the educational component. So I get the impression we are all on board with this. I would like to get back to John from the Forest Service and let him know we are in fact interested in the project and need to move on to the next phase, planning and fund raising.
Ed

[Ed Thayer]

Program and Events BOD Report: December 2012

This is a brief report for the BOD from the Program and events committee for January 2012

1. Mission statement:
To plan events, network with other organizations and develop workshops that promote draft animal power, further the craft and educate the general public about draft power.

2. Potential Events:
Spring Wood Bee in Charlestown, Plow Day @ Sam Rich’s Farm, July GMDHA Farm Day @ Shelburne Farms, September Annual Meeting At Neil Perry’s farm. Lincoln Woods Salvage project.

3. Proposed 2012 Budget: Program and Events Comm, Jan 4, 2012
Income per event
Registrations 600
Food 625
Grant/sponsorship 2850
Total income 4075
Expenses
Teamsters
#1 700
#2 700
#3 700
Food 625
Promotion 500
Printing 25
Mailing 20
Misc. supplies 25
Volunteers 480
Administrative 300
Total expenses 4075
Annual P&E budget 16300 based on 4 events/y

The P&E committee has determined that these field day and event income and expenses are representative of a typical event. Some events may be greater, some less.

Justification
1. Registrations based on 30 per event @ $20 ea.
2. Food is best guess based on Athol event.
3. Teamster payment for expenses based on discussions with teamsters. $200/day teaching, $1/mile travel, meals or $30/d per diem.
4. Grant/sponsorship support required per event to break even.
5. Food income and expenses based on Athol.
6. Paid volunteers based on 3 per event * 8 h/day * two days * $10/h.
7. Administrative support based on 12 h * $25/h. Assist with pre-event planning and organization, coordinate and direct volunteer labor, etc.

4. Survey Results From Athol:
Summary and some key implications of the Athol Survey, December 2011
1. We are reaching the desired target audience of farmers, loggers, foresters and students with an interest in draft animals.
2. Most attendees own, manage, or have an influence on the management of farm and forest land.
3. Most attendees increased their understanding of the role of draft animals in farm and forest management.
4. Most attendees planned to, or were likely to make changes in the way they managed their land as a result of this event.
5. Frequently mentioned helpful things learned included application of the equipment (scoot in this case), observation of and interaction with experienced teamsters, woodlot management principles and developing harvesting and business plans.
6. Summary of written comments for event planners:
a. More and earlier promotion of the event would have been helpful.
b. Help visitors understand what is happening when and where.
c. Strengthen the educational component, e.g. on-going commentary to help visitors understand what is needed, what is being accomplished, how and why.
d. Only a short period of time is available. Develop specific learning objectives.
e. Allow time for more interaction with the teamsters.

Harrigan’s assessment based on survey results and P&E comm discussion
There are many positives with room to improve:
1. We are reaching the desired target audience and they have the potential to change the way farmland and forest land is managed. They are actively involved with draft animals or aspire to become involved. They are learning new techniques and methods at our events but there is a lot of room to strengthen the educational component. Visitors expect to see– and need to see–animals working, but the educational content can be refined to go beyond the obvious or simply show-and-tell aspects.

2. Specific recommendations:
a. Have an adequate number of volunteers on site, easily identified, with specific responsibilities to greet, inform, and direct visitors to on-going and planned activities. Make use of handouts and signage.
b. Teamsters cannot simultaneously work and provide commentary. A knowledgeable commentator will be needed to work with the teamsters to facilitate the activities and deliver educational content. Also for crowd control and safety.
c. More pre-event coordination and planning will be required to develop specific learning objectives and determine how best to demonstrate and convey educational content.
d. Specific learning objectives should help focus event promotion. Attendees will learn how to……and why they should…… These can be the basis for written press releases that both inform and promote the event.
e. Tell them what you are going to show them, show them, and tell them what you showed them.

TMH January 5, 2012

[Ed Thayer]

George,

I have often wondered the same thing regarding deaf horses; mine will stand right next to you if I let them while I run the saw. I think they are intrigued by it.
I like you pictures, good loads of wood. How far are you skidding to your landing? Is it hilly or flat?

ED

[Ed Thayer]

@Tim Harrigan 31492 wrote:

Maybe if we develop a specific plan and budget, they can undertake a fund raising effort?

Tim,

This was already done by John Plowden. The report John circulated to the P&E Committee last month was in depth and had an estimate included for the work.

Proposed rates – Teamster and team -$300/day plus travel x2x3= $1800.00
Teamster and Single – $250/day plus travel x2x3=$1500.00
Total teams less travel – $3300.00
Travel – $1.00/mile round trip

I would also propose that the Forest Service give us all salvage rights or equal value of the scrap steel and timber once it has reached the trail head at the Kank.

I think we would support this project and get involved if the Forest Service can find some funds and not just mileage reimbursement.

Brad has a good point in that if we can get other groups, conservation or otherwise, to pony up the money than it would be a great opportunity to promote the use of draft animals and what they are capable of. Jen has stated from the beginning, because of the remoteness of this job, filming the work as a documentary might be the best approach.

I will give the others a couple more days to chime in then I guess we go with what we have.

Ed

[Ed Thayer]

Thanks for input. I called the vet and will be taking a stool sample over first thing on Monday. I will keep you posted.
Most stools are just loose, but a few have been the cow pie type.

Ed

[Ed Thayer]

Gordon,
The benefit of the D ring is that all the weight of the pole is transferred to the back pad and not the neck yolk, regardless of the angle of draft from the D ring back to the heel chains. I have no experience with other types of harnesses and was sold on the D ring after watching Les Barden describe it in person.
As long as the angle of draft from the collar to the D is 90 degrees, the rear trace or tug can be at any angle within reason and not affect the comfort of the horse’s neck and shoulder. And comfort of the Horse is really the overall benefit of the D in my opinion.
Draft angle can change with terrain and other variances but should never discomfort the horse if the harness is adjusted correctly. The draft for most of these New England style scoots is typically designed to attach under the front bunk. The actual draft angle is achieved by adjusting the heel chains and the draw chain of the scoot. This scoot has an adjustable draw chain to allow for this.
When I hitched these two horses, It took some time to adjust the harnesses, but when we did, I actually sat on the pole between the two horses and was able to observe the slack from the lazy strap that hangs from the collar to the forward strap that attaches to the jockey stick and there was absolutely no downward pressure on the collar of the horses neck. All of my petite 210lbs was resting solely on the back pad of the team.

Ronnie,
Regarding the preference for a log scoot or single Bob scoot, it is in my opinion just that, A preference. Carl has a whole lot more experience with them than I do and would be a better candidate to explain. But here are my two cents. The scoot will remove all drag from the logs carried and will concentrate the drag to two runners. This may be a benefit depending on the terrain like deep snow or soft ground. The scoot will also keep your logs cleaner when skidding through mud. Scoots that are not steel soled can be Full Moccasin or Half Moccasin and are another preference to the person operating it. That is a whole other discussion in itself.
The Bob is lighter, smaller and much more maneuverable in tight quarters and would be a benefit where space is tight. They are typically shod with steel and are easy to transport. There are so many variables; I could not begin to explain the overall pros and cons. Again I am not an expert on these. This is the first scoot I have built and relied on others here and their designs to complete it.

Ed

[Ed Thayer]

Does anyone have any other comments on the proposed budget for P&E? We need to wrap this up for Reeva.

Ed

[Ed Thayer]

Another quick video to prove that Jen and Scott did not ruin the go devil. 😎

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlskhVmydDk

[Ed Thayer]

The first hitches with the new scoot. We loaded light and often, but the horses were capable of pulling more. This was green hardwood and preety heavy just the same. I was very pleased with the horses work today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohmq_M9ihCU&list=UUD980tZE1hiwnW1xeK024NA&index=1&feature=plcp

Ed

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