[Donn Hewes]

I just use whoa to mean stand until released. While I do sometimes end up repeating the command if needed, I hate to repeat it a bunch of times. Usually for animals that are supposed to be standing, but need a slight correction; I will use a mix of grunts growls and coughs to let them know I know, and therefore they will be wanting to put their foot back were it belongs. Like with dogs, the more alert you are and the more quickly you catch someone thinking about making a false move the less energy it takes to keep them in their place. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

JL, Have you ever had to give the shots Jennifer is talking about to a mule? My wife, who gives all the shots here, says it is the thing she likes the least about the long ears. It can be a real struggle. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Took me a minute to get what you meant by wet collars. I guess you mean to teach them to stand by making them tired enough that they will want to stand. This is often repeated here and there is some truth to it, but I bristle just a little every time. I think tired animals will stand, and I think hard work, sweat, and being tired are all good for horses and mules, but I don’t think tired animals learn any better than tired children. My animals will, stand quietly for harnessing even though they have done no work yet. They will stand quietly for five or ten minutes while while I hook four to a PTO forecart and then stop at the pump for fuel. I will stop to talk to my neighbor if I want to. Wait while I fiddle with the stupid rope that positions the haybine behind the cart to fit through the gates and lane. They still aren’t tired and haven’t done a lick of work yet. Now I go out to the field and wait fifteen minutes to see if the dew will dry while I watch it, (it won’t). They need to stand if something is broken, or lost. I start to teach them to stand while I am training them before I put a harness on. I continue to teach it every day there after. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

hi Hal, good questions. I am no expert on a wide range of training methods, but I will give you a few ideas and others may add more.

I think of “pressure and release” training as a method. It is utilized with a wide variety of tools in a wide variety of situations to teach different things. I guess pressure and release somewhat resembles how horses interact with each other. One thing I like about pressure and release training is it most resembles how I work. In work, I ask for something and they respond. The release is, me trying not to bother them while they are working.

“clicker training” is a method that relys on all animals basic tendency to learn more quickly from positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. Try to ignore the unwanted behavior and just reward the one you want.

Round pens can be used in many different ways. It may be a safe place that insures your animal doesn’t walk off and leave you, or it may be a tool that is integral to the training. It can be used put pressure on or take it away, or you can work in the middle and ignore it.

In pressure and release training for example, you might work in a round pen, or a small paddock or out in the pasture. The tools that you would choose would depend on what you wanted to teach and specific techniques you want to use. The tools might include, your hands and hat, a lariat, a rope halter, a lung whip, and many other home made and improvised things that help you convey your message. The list of tools and preferences is as unlimited as the number of horses trainers. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Don’t know anything about oxen, but it seems to me that your horses and your oxen are sure getting mixed together in this thread.

[Donn Hewes]

Rod, I am closing the curtains!! Donn

[Donn Hewes]

I would be surprised if B. W. Macknair (717-543-5136) didn’t have it. They have never let me down. Great folks to deal with. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Well I feel a little guilty throwing out the word ‘dominate’, and then taking off for a couple of days. I enjoyed what everyone said though. I like to use the word because it brings out so many reactions that lead to good discussions about what is the relationship we really want with our animals. I don’t think of it as being negative at all. The dictionary says it means “to govern, control, or rule.” I think there are a lot of semantics with all these words but to me it just means to be in charge. I want to learn from my teams, I want to be able to read their input into situations we get into, I rely on them in many ways; but I am the decider(:rolleyes:!!!).

These thoughts bring me back to my idea (mentioned in other threads) of developing the attributes of beginning teamsters. I know from many experiences in my life (including working many years as a professional firefighter, mountain climber, and farmer) that anyone can be promoted, or voted in charge; but it takes quite a set of skills to be a good leader.

I think pressure applied carefully is simply a clear and direct way of letting an animal know what we are asking for. (Why would you apply pressure any other way — when you ask someone to do something for you, do you say please?) That is why we try to use the same tone and words each time. Saying “step up” with a kiss, is pressure. Pure and simple. In all my training, rope halter, round pen, in a stall, loose or hitched; I seldom use more pressure than that. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, It is fun to read a detailed description. I spend more time getting animals ready fro noisy equipment – but it is fun to work with animal on the “simple” act of pulling. I have been teaming Connie with one of the mules and teaching her to start a load. Nothing like firewood to teach with. For anyone that is curious I think it is interesting to connect Carl’s words above with the three photos he posted in the “old school” thread I think it was. You can clearly see the teamster focus on the head of the animal. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

While I know nothing about clicker training; I found this click in the middle of holding the hoof up a little confusing too. In order to repeat a task based on previous training it seems to me that a constant pattern is needed. Typically, asking for a behavior (different ways to do this), followed by the response, when the task is completed successfully, a release or reward for the animal. this way a horse can predict the results of responding to a familiar request in the usual way will be the normal reward or release. I would have guessed the click was used at the point of release followed by the carrot piece. I guess it could be used in the begin as well, as part of the asking? What does the click really signify?

Is the purpose of clicker training specifically to teach a specific skill to a specific animal that is not learning by other methods or is it to avoid dominating the animal in general. Would it be used to teach all the work skills and habits to the animal? Don’t get me wrong, I am just asking as a curious horse trainer. I have a hard time imagining a good working relationship for me and my animals were I wasn’t completely dominant. I use the word by choice because it pushes so many buttons for people. I will be out of town for a couple days but would find a discussion of how dominance fits into clicker training interesting. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

What were the bridles like? What were the horses doing; driving, working, riding,etc? What did the article say? Just curious. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Hal, I sometimes wonder how this forum is perceived by a novice teamster. I think if you read most threads carefully you will find the places were different ideas match up with something already said. Often two ideas are expressed very differently, but actually share an important concept. I think the power of the forum is to look for places where the different contributors ideas fit together.

As for recognizing when a teamster is abusing their animals, I would suggest you concentrate on teams at work in the woods and farm. That is not to say these animals can’t be abused as well; but it is usually the result of ignorance or meanness, and not the added desire to win. I have said before, if you don’t have enough experience to recognize every minute skill that a teamster is using to manage their team, look at how the team is responding. Your gut instinct should tell you if the animals are calm, stand quietly, and work together when asked. These are teamsters you might try to learn from. In my experience horses and mules don’t really benefit from a raised voice, so if someone is yelling or shouting, that is another clue.

[Donn Hewes]

Lots of good advice in this thread. As far as the vet goes, I agree with Carl, don’t call them until you think you have found something you want. After all the other work you have put into finding these animals, It is worth it to have someone put a stethoscope on the wind pipe, lungs, heart, and guts, just for starters. I haven’t always done it but I have also seen a few cases were it might have saved some trouble. If they are a good horse vet they will have an opinion about how old the animals are, if they have ever been bred, are there an obvious problems for breeding in the future. Some vets can be relied upon for their opinion of the confirmation. Has the animal ever foundered? This info may be in the sole of the hoof.

[Donn Hewes]

Dennis, That looks like a lot of fun. I will have to make it down there one of these days. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Aaronlee, Good Question. I have to agree with what Mark said. Most of us at one time or another have brought home horses that did not work out for one reason or another. Having said that we would rather bring home a team we can keep rather than take them back and start over.

Here are a things I hope I have learned. I encourage you to use a vet. If you do, I absolutely encourage you to be there when the vet is. Be prepared with a list of questions you want answered. Also the use of a vet will be far more beneficial if it is a vet you already know, who really understands that they are there to help you find the right horse and not there to make a sale. Using the sellers vet is mostly a waist of money. Even a good vet check is not a guarantee.

If you are buying horses that are “broke to drive”; drive them several times. Hook them to a wagon and take them out on the road if that is what they are supposed to be able to do. With the owner, of course. If you come into the barn and they are all harnessed up get there early the next time so you can help harness them. Don’t be imbarrased to drive them infront of the owner. If your driving skills are not up to what this team requires, now is the time to find out.

Remember, no matter how big, beautiful, and strong they are you want a calm horse that will except your leadership. I hate to say it but almost none of this can be done in the time frame of an auction. It can be fun to look for horses, but if you are impulsive like me it can be challenging to. Good Luck, Donn

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