[Donn Hewes]

Hey, you got it made. Go right to the shops and ask them. They will tell you what ever you want to know. Almost none of these folks are on the internet. Few have a phone. Most don’t answer the phone, anyway. They will all give you directions to the next small shop to help you find what you are looking for. A couple months ago I was down to get an old vacuum pump fixed. Picked up a dolly wheel for a mowing machine. Could have spent two more days, the only shopping trip I ever enjoy. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

WV Drafty, If I where there I would have plenty. I think you have a ton of suggestions already. Sometimes the best posts in these threads are when someone can collect some of the valuable ideas from several, (like what plowboy did). But what you need to do now is read these with a comb. Make a couple notes, and ask us questions. Start to form your own opinion of what you are reading. Don’t be afraid to share it. Jason asked about the bit at the top of the thread. That is a good question. Questions I would ask are, How are their ground manors in general? Everything from leading to trimming hooves to standing for a harness. How often can you work them? Don’t feel bad if it is every weekend. There are many of us in that boat. we would all like to hook every day and it is great for horses and mules, but it is not the only way. Is there any work in harness that they do calmly? How are they while you hook them to a tongue?

My questions aside I would really like to know what you think. There is a ton of good advice above, don’t let it bury you. Enjoy the sun shine today.

[Donn Hewes]

“Donn, I need some help. I’m having trouble understanding how no pressure on the lines from the human being is going to help this team wait until the human being wants them to go – calmly.”

Joel, I will try to help. His original question was about “holding them back”, I assumed these horses were moving and pulling on the bit. Your question above makes me think you think they are not standing, ie. “waiting until the human wants them to go” Now I am not sure.

“As I said in previous posts, I’m a k.i.s.s. kind of guy. This team & driver sound like they are still in kindergarden & you seem to be asking for high school work from them.”

I don’t think of myself as an un K.I.S.S. person but perhaps I am. I recommend “no pressure” driving to ever person who asks me. Therefore to me it is not Kindergarden or High School, It is how I drive and what I would teach any animal or person. If today was their first day that is what I would start to teach. As far as the animals go, I don’t think “no pressure” driving is something you will work up to gradually, like driving with light lines perhaps. I think it is best to go cold turkey if you want to drive that way and train the animals to drive that way.

I prefer this method for a variety of reasons. I believe it helps a horse or mule relax in work. I think it gives me another easy method of recognizing an animal that is not relaxed. Most of my farm work is spent 6 to 8 hours going around on an implement with two or four animals. I don’t like to use my forearms in this work, I want to use my brain and my hands.

I always try to preface my comments here with “this is what has worked for me – I am sure it is not for everyone”

“Thanks.” I hope I answered your questions a little. I am not sure I did. If you still want to know more about what I am doing feel free to ask. Sorry about the ” ” , I don’t think I know the magic way of moving your comments into my post. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Here is an alternative you may consider. Actually, all the advice above is good and will work with sufficient time and understanding (I don’t mean compassion, I mean accurately reading what is going on). I train and drive all my horses and mules with a method I call “no pressure” driving. That means when they are walking in the direction I want to go at the speed I want to go there will be no pressure on the bit. So what is the difference? I try to never return their pressure on the bit with pressure of my own; ie. “hold them back”. Instead when I ask them to go I expect them to walk, when one takes a step out of line I correct it with a non verbal command vie the lines. Tap, tap, tap, you are supposed to be walking here. If they don’t “hear” this I do it a little louder, again with the lines. They will learn to walk, and pull things with out any pressure on the bit. You have to train yourself to release all pressure at every opportunity to give them the chance to do it right. A trick I play on myself to make sure I am releasing them quickly and consistently is to translate every bump on the lines to words. For example, slow, left, right, come back, pay attention now. I can give those commands as fast as I can say them and I should be releasing just as quickly. Don’t make the mistake of thinking I am driving around without contact on my animals. Contact is extremely important to encouraging and developing a young team. I just don’t want pressure. For a young team I might have a constant chatter of signals going up the lines, but I want to know what each one is, like whispering in their ear. I have used this method with mules that were pulling hard on the lines with great effect. Any method you choose will require patience and time. Good luck. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

hi George, I think there may be more than one way, and mine not be the “right” way but I don’t us the “insert image” or “insert Link” , I use the paper clip above “attachments”. That way I can go find the file instead of of entering it’s HTTP. I use the “insert link” when I want to connect folks to photos in my web album, though. Thumbnails are ok. They open the minute some one clicks on them. Donn

This picture is a bad example. I picked it at random and after I saw it I remembered a whole group of photos That a friend sent me that are compressed and never open very big. Good luck. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

if you have all your photos in picasa on your computer as I do, you need to “export” it to your desktop. This will make it a unique file you can link to. It doesn’t have to be on the web. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Doug, Sounds like a nice horse. I hope you get him going. I know I always say it but remember we have not ever met the horse. We could all be wrong. I think there are three general possibilities.

The first is that there is really nothing “wrong” with the horse. His behavior is not exactly what you want but that could be because he did not get the signals he needed or was used to working with. He may have not worked much recently. He may not have worked single in a long time. All these things come back to the teamster recognizing and dealing with. Not the horse.

Second is weakness in his training or behavior that have gone uncorrected for a long time which are just being expressed now that he is being asked to return to work.

Finally, a combination of both, or a little of one and more of the other.

The trick to resolving this is to observe him more closely. What will he do calmly? What will he do if you challenge him a little but not so much that he doesn’t stay in control? What kind of line pressure is he using when you drive him?

When a horse “spins around faster than you can keep up with the lines” That should be prevented by the teamster before it happens. easy to say, not all ways easy to do while you are still learning. First. bracket the horse. I am not sure if that is a technical term but to me it means keeping one line on either side of their but. You will want to progress to driving from either side of the horse as soon as you can, but to bracket them will help a great deal if they are thinking of turning around. When a bracketed horse tries to spin around they are already tightening the line that prevents them from coming on around. With the lines over their back the teamster must see what is coming and react to prevent it before it really get started. Focus your eyes on their head like a laser. Let their head tell you what they are thinking and what they are about to do. Steer their head with the lines to make them continue to do what you want and go were you want to go.

Finally, In my thread on training Connie I talked about the need for a chance for a green teamster and a new horse to establish the working relationship. Skip some of the trapping of harness and driving at first and just establish a relationship that makes it clear who leads and who follows. Good luck with the new horse Doug, and keep us posted on what is up. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

I might be missing something but there is a difference between a horse that is lunging to tighten the traces and one that is “hopping” or using it’s hind end to move something heavy. It sounds to me from frank’s description that the horse is lunging before the trances are tight. If this is so, it takes practice with the lines to hold them a little until the tugs are tight and then release them to use their power. They can learn this but it takes a lot of concentration to repeat this process ever time they start a load. I don’t think it is an either or; I think Carl’s answer is right too. Keep the horse confident and calm. Let him work up to what he can do. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

I move them around like Carl does. They might have a regular spot for a while but I still want to be able to move them around. It helps when you want a three abreast or four. You also could consider which is your furrow horse. On a mower and some old rakes the seat is just left of center. A horse that is a little more up on the bit would do well on the right. That balances them out a little. With a three or four abreast for making hay you want a good walking animal on the left as they walk further with every corner. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Jean, I am glad you took my comments as they were intended. I watched the video and found it interesting. If I could I take the risk of a few more suggestions? These are just thoughts and things I might try. I always remind myself that I am not there and haven’t met the horse. Please take anything I say in that light. I think he is a handsome horse. Full of spirit and eager to please. In the round pen scenes your directions to him are a little quick and a little loud ( not just your voice, but also the lung whip and body) for a horse that is paying so much attention to you. If we want him to be calm and relaxed we must be calm and relaxed. Just for fun try and do the whole exercise as slowly as possible (slow motion). No trotting allowed, When you ask him to move have him move at a walk (remember he will move in relation to your volume). When you are next to him after leading him in, and you want to move away to make enough space to start him make him stand still while you do that. Go slow, he has learned that he wants to follow you and that is good. Now we are asking him to do something different. Wait still while you move away. Don’t have him move until you are ready and give a command. Realizing that in the round pen scenario one hand is always leading the horse and the other is driving it. try it with out the lung whip. hold the lung rope in the leading hand – only let him out about fifteen feet at first. take the excess in small lopes in your driving hand. Keep both hands out at your sides, one in front of him to lead him the other behind to drive him. This let’s him know where we want him to go. But keep your hands down at waist level, higher is louder. A little shake of the loops will be enough to make him walk off. A little shake will keep him walking. A little tug with the leading hand will steer him and refocus him when his head drifts out side the circle. To get him to stop, relax both hands right in front of you at the waist. Take a step a head of him, ( not towards him) if needed. Don’t say whoa until he stops unless you already KNOW he will. If he reacts in a way that you don’t understand or appreciate, realize it may well have been something you did, not him. Be calm, quite, let him settle and continue to look for the cues that you can give, that get the results you desire. I could try to describe the steps for having him change directions if you like. I think Kruiser is a beauty. I would love to seem him skid some not too big, not too small logs and learn walking as a natural state. Obviously I have had coffee by now so no excuses. I hope any of this is helpful. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Everyone, i will take on the role of neighborhood curmudgeon today. Just pretend I didn’t get any coffee when I got up. Jean I am concerned about what you learned from this event. If what you learned is to not be afraid when an animal bolts, or that you can control that fear enough to still be useful to yourself and the horse this is a good thing. If you believe it means you can control an animal when they bolt, or that this will always be true, I think that is a dangerous idea. These animals can become extremely frightened AFTER they bolt. This can depend on what they are hooked to, noises that change as a result of the speed changing, and many other factors. The space that we have available to work in is also very important. being out in a large field or an open road is great. Next time there might not be enough room to turn before hitting trees or other obstacles. The last thing I migth suggest you learned would be that the moment to prevent this from happening was missed. It involved watching the animal (mostly his head) more intently and recognizing signs that he was not completely calm and relaxed.

Frank, I am sorry but I can’t agree with the notion that we should just “give him the reigns once in a while”. In fact I don’t think you give him anything. I think he took them and then you you tried to accept what had altready happened. If I want to trot, I will say “trot now”, if I don’t we better still be walking. People often ask me if my horses and mules enjoy their work. I always reply “I have no idea” and if they have half the brains I think they do mowing around in circles for four hours in the hot sun isn’t the funnest thing they have ever done. Two important things come from me not focusing on whether they are enjoying themselves. I never forget that they are “willing” to work, I that is because I am responsible for their care and comfort.

I hope I haven’t upset anyone by responding today. My only motivation is a care for the folks I have met here and to offer an opinion that might be helpful or useful. I hope you will take it in that light. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

I would feed a little extra hay for a few days and just keep the piles far enough apart so he tires of going back and forth. They will work it out.

[Donn Hewes]

I have one and it works well. One suggestion. mount it to something solid. As with anything hand cranked, the little vibration is all wasted effort. Mine is attached to a short piece of rail road iron that fits in it’s own little saw horse. never moves, all ways ready. I would bet you could find those stones. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Ed, I am glad Ozzie seems to be fitting in well. He looks good. I will attach your pictures here. I just had to add one of my own pictures to give Franz (the Halflinger right?) something to think about. Keep up the good work. Donn

Some horses will take a second to relax once the hoof is up. Then when they are ready they will gently let you take it back. May not be what is going on at all, but worth a shot – just try going a little slower with a chance to relax. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

I have not envisioned a Co-op in the traditional sense of consumers being members, (it was added as an idea on the white board exercise, but not my idea). Rather, I think of it as a Co-op where the producers are members. That way I run the store, but they know what it costs and participate in making it successful. As Far as the consumers are concerned, I want to encourage as much participation as possible.

Geoff, A commercial kitchen is not off topic at all. We need these small enterprises, We have considered combined the commercial kitchen idea with the store idea.

Neal, I have some friends with on farm sales that surprised the heck out of me. These were out of the way places too. That was one of the things I considered in estimating the stores potential.

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