[Donn Hewes]

I think there are a fair number of what I call “sleepers”. most herds of more than three or four horses have one. I don’t like a horse that is so up and excited they take extra effort to manage, but a sleep can be almost as bad. These horses will have there head down and are not really paying as much attention to what is going on around them. Sometimes you can surprise them or scary them with something everyone else was aware of and watching for the last minute. The fact that they are all different is one of the challenging / interesting parts of our work.

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Andy, ground drive problems are fun to try to solve. We are looking forward to our farm Hack (look in the events thread) where we plan to convert a wd 45 tractor to a ground drive PTO. Similar to the one Neal Perry did. as for a clutch, remember your cutting, baling, or other parts must be moving as soon as you start. No time to start moving and then let out a clutch. I think flywheels will not help much because of this, might help when slowing momentarily in corners or something like that; but I think that is a lot of extra weight to carry just for that. Fun stuff.

[Donn Hewes]

My tie stalls are also a run in. That means there is 36′ feeder with the feeder divided every 6′ a tie ropes in each. No slip knots on mine but the animals are not tied that often or that long. They also have an automatic water bowl (just like in a cow barn) in between each pair of animals. These are drained in the winter, but they are great in the rest of the year. Nothing divides the horses and nothing behind them. I have rubber mats on the floor that slope slightly to the center, where I build a small pack for week or two before I clean it out. the rest of the mats stay pretty clean with a little help from a leaf rake. My feeder is about chest high for the horse, but I would put the bottom right on the floor. Good for them to reach all the way in an also keeps the hay in.

[Donn Hewes]

I haven’t brought the tractor home yet from down the road, (waiting on a tire). But after we have worked on it I am sure i will be able to give a full description. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Peyton, I am having fun – I must confess. The ground drive PTO has never worked perfectly. The key to ground drive PTO carts is matching the weight of the cart with the work you want to do. That cart is just a little too light to run a four star tedder, which is what I wanted it to do. Google farmhack and look at the event we are having next month. We will convert a AC wd 45 to ground drive cart ala Neal Perry. Should be fun.

The gas powered PTO cart was built over a couple years, but the main work was done at an Amish welding shop in Romulus, NY. He matched the honda to the pulleys and made a great pivoting shaft to engage and disengage it. I like having a third wheel but I might use a bigger tire. I like having the tongue free up and down and side to side. Side to side does help get the whole rig slightly farther into a corner. It is just about impossible to back with anything hooked on. I try to keep it hooked up.

The breaks I put on my self and the are brake drums and brake lines. I got them from some out fit in NE, but I would look for other suppliers (SFJ?). The cart also has hydraulics and that is nice if you want to use different pieces of equipment. there are two pulleys on the front of the motor. That haybine is a seven footer as it was local and i wasn’t sure what size I wanted. That cart would have handled a nine footer easy. It coasted with the haybine. I have since gone back to mowing with sickle bar mowers. I use two seven foot bars and two teams and can mow more , faster, and I like it better. There is about one day a year when I wish I still had the haybine.

[Donn Hewes]

I think making hay with the horses is fun, but it is hard work and each piece takes a little time to learn. I would recommend starting with the raking, tedding, and mowing and working up to baling. If you have never used the mower before but it has some new parts. start clipping or mowing something at the end of April to make sure it is working the way you want and give you and your animals a little chance to get used to it.

Provided you have a decent forecart, raking and tedding with horses is pretty easy. It helps if you have already spent some time making hay with a tractor, as you already know what you need to do. Baling with horses can be accomplished in a number of different ways, many mentioned above. I believe a motor on the baler is slightly more efficient than the motor on a PTO cart, but that depends on what else you might want to pull with the PTO cart. If you want to use a small combine, or haybine (discbine will usually take a much bigger motor) then a motor on a cart is a good idea. Most of the baling systems use at least four horses if you want to put the bales on a wagon. Careful about the idea of baling with a ground drive cart. It could work. But I believe it will be another level of challenge. More horses required (6 or 8 to load a wagon), and a little harder just to keep the baler going as windrows change, etc.

It is fun, but there is lots to learn, also having the hay at that distance is an added challenge. Lots of hay making photos on my web album. click on web
album.

One more thing – if I was going to build a ground up gas powered PTO cart, I would spend the extra money to buy a good small 25 hp battery start gas eng. Honda or the like.

[Donn Hewes]

I would say that the horses and mules are relatively simple. Not necessarily easy, as I have failed with a few; but as Carl say’s they are just horses. The best or worst is just reacting as a horse would in a certain situation. What I think can be tricky, and is more interesting to me is how we can teach the leadership skills needed to be a teamster to green teamsters. I would like folks I help to have the best chance at a safe and effective start with farming with horses. Training people is really what I am focusing on. This is why I think finding words to describe what we are doing is useful to me. As Dennis suggested learning from the older timers didn’t always include a lot of words. What they did was teach by example and as we know; horses respond very well with out much verbal input from us. The old timers talked to the rest of the world the same way they did to horses; say a few key things, usually quietly, and stand in such a way to convey the rest of the message.

For folks raised around agriculture and animals (or someone that is really determined or especially observant) this method can provide good results. Many motivated or interested young folks I meet need something more basic as a starting point. That is where I bring in the loose horse. To teach them their relationship with the animals. Folks may mistakenly think they understand the loose horse because they have been cleaning the barn or feeding them; but in reality they have been subtly moving around the animals without realizing it. Have them try to trim a horse while it is not tied up. This is not for the horse; horses don’t care if they are tied or not to get their feet trimmed. A beginning teamster can learn a ton by making a horse stand still while they trim it’s hind feet.

[Donn Hewes]

I really enjoy thinking about the words that describe the actions we use to work or train our animals. I am sure that these words are not so important for folks that have horses going where they want and standing where they want. I find them interesting because at some point you need them to teach others. I think have gained some new ways of describing things from this conversation.

I have often talked about the benefits of working the calm, relaxed, and alert horse. The horse that is comfortable is the horse that will stand. When I start to train a young horse with some spunk (long rope or lines) I am not trying to stop it or get it to stand. In fact I am not even asking it to slow if it is not ready. Just make it go in circles. It will slow on it own and you will be creating the light mouthed horse you want. This is where an animal first discovers that I can easily “stay in front” of it. When it is slow and more relaxed it is ready to begin to learn to stop and stand. Based on what Carl said, and I agree, they can’t stand if they aren’t relaxed. That is the definition of standing for them.

When you work around the loose horse you are learning about a new aspect of contact (getting and holding the horses attention). If I want the animal to remain still I have to learn what body language and sounds constitute “contact”. I remain studiously aware of my animal while avoiding the “contact” that tells the horse it is time to pay attention and prepare to do something. All of this is easier the more relaxed the animal is. In this manor we can use the same definition for contact whether we are talking about picking up the lines; or walking around the horse.

You can help the animal relax by asking it to move for a while. This is where the driving techniques the develop a relaxed horse will help when you ask to stop or stand. One of the reasons that I like to incorporate the the basic training into a simple task like skidding small logs is because we don’t get rapped up in the idea of frequent stops, and other details that can serve to keep the animal from relaxing. If you focus permitting / encourageing / developing the animals ability to relax at work, then stopping and standing will flow from that.

[Donn Hewes]

Yes, the stick is a different length for different mowers. The new ready made sticks are nice. Making a stick is difficult if you have one for a pattern. drilling good square holes is the key. I clamp the pattern on top and drill down through. The new bolts and plates should be all the same size, 5/16″. But it is easy to call and get one!

[Donn Hewes]

“I’m interested in what you are saying about leadership and the horses being ahead of me, and needing to get ahead of them. I think that you are saying is…watch the horse, when it looks like he is going to break the whoa because he can’t stand it anymore, then get ahead of him and ask for the walk first so that it’s your idea…Does that sound about right?”

I think this is a fine idea as far as it goes. You also want to “get ahead of him” By seeing what is contributing to the horse staying still and what is not. In that way expanding their ability to do the right thing. I think one of the common mistakes we can make is to try and rush. I especially encourage folks not to rush through something difficult.

The question is; if we don’t want to rush to get going, what can we do to “get ahead” of them? A hand on the their hip for a second while we are still helps them be still, then we can move while they stay still. getting them moving can be part of that, but not the whole picture.

[Donn Hewes]

Carl, That is a great looking event. if I was closer I would offer to help. good luck and I will pass the word. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Sickle, There is another thread in this same “training Horses” area. called “how do you start your horses?”. You might find that interesting. One of the things I do when I am training a green horse or a green teamster: or any combination of the two (horses that are new to me), is start them loose and free. Can I get them moving around me, etc. Can I make them stand still while I move around them. In the case of a beginning teamster they learn that their awareness of the animal (mental contact) is what keeps it still. A touch or a voice are all fine depending on what the animal needs, but mostly it is our being aware of how our movements effect them.

Then we throw in a harness and lines, and maybe a singletree and chain, and suddenly the person finds it is much harder to keep the animal still; before we turn around, after we turn them around, etc. This is because all the awareness that was developed when we had the loose horse can be lost when we focus on the log, the chain, the lines etc. This where I ask the beginning teamster to remember what level of attention it took to make the loose horse stand while we worked around it. Eventually you can handle all of those and still keep the animal standing still until you are ready. If at first you are careful; moving slowly, in how and when you pick up the lines and make contact only when you are ready they will stay still; it becomes easier and more relaxed with time. these are just some of the methods and ideas I use. Donn

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Carl, I love reading different ways of putting something. Even though I have always thought of “whoa” as a command to stop; the way I treat it is much more as a reward as you describe. A lot of “teaching” horses to stand is learning how to be near by, but leave them alone (released). Be aware of what they can and can’t do on their own. Using whoa in tight spaces allows animals a chance to balance themselves. I would rather take an extra second and have the foot fall just where I wanted it. I saw a picture of your horse up above (Intro to working horses); beautiful roached horse with split bridle! talk to you soon. Donn

“That piece between the ears is always getting in the way” !

[Donn Hewes]

Hi Mark, A lot, but certainly not all draft bridles have a piece that comes from back to front between the ears. Mostly decorative in my opinion. Some stop at the brow band with a little leather flower or flourish. Some are split face bridles that continue down the center until splitting left and right to the bit ring. While I am not really talking about altering the split face bridle (as this holds them together) I have never really liked them as much as bridles that have a standard nose band over the nose. I am not suggesting that others should assume my bias. I really only dislike them for one reason – it takes an extra second and effort to make the manes fit with these bridles. I don’t like to see a bridle put on with disregard for the hair.

I wish I had a good series of photos to depicted all the variations on bridles that are out there. I have my favorites. but I am sure we all do. I recently had a couple bridles made with halter pieces added. So far I like them.

[Donn Hewes]

Well, I should ( NOT) really encourage people to cut up nice new bridles! but I just get rid of parts I don’t want. They take an extra 1/2 second to put the bridle on neatly. I never have the pieces between the ears for the same reason. The one difficulty you may have with a check is teaching a horse that is determined to eat (they will try to pull everything over their head in an attempt to eat). The checks that are hitched into the britchen may do this a little more effectively than the ones over the hames. But if I have an offender I just shorten the check a little until they learn then I loosen it to a good working length again. For the head carriage I prefer (low); the side pieces on the bridle really don’t do anything.

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