[Donn Hewes]

I am unclear on the terms you are using?  Double neck yoke?  Is perhaps a neck yoke with two jockey yokes (my terms – sorry).? or just a three foot yoke made for a team  (not usually refered to as a double neck yoke).   In that case the three foot neck yoke matches if you use a three foot double tree behind the horses.  In any case your yoke and evener should match or be close as they aline the front end and the back of the animals.  A martengale I think of as a harness with no collar and a breast strap for a horse pulling a light rig.  I might easily be wrong in this as it is not a setup I am that familiar with.  As for the two foot yoke; That may or may not go with the martengale and it sounds like a jockey yoke.

 

Peyton,  I didn’t modify your post – it just thinks I did!  Still learning, D

The use of jockey yokes (short – individual yokes) will depend on the type of harness you have.  A side backer or a D ring harness will use a short yoke along with the three foot yoke; while a belly backer will not.

[Donn Hewes]

I wish I was closer.  I am very busy and not really available for a trip.  I think you need to look at the over all situation.  As I suggested earlier, hoping to plow with animals that you are still trying to get going, still learning the ropes with; might be over eager.  You will need to afford your self some time for a learning curve.  get some logs, or better yet real fire wood to work with.  Go back and forth with each log.  This will teach you and them the basics.  These are some times made light of, but they are not to be over looked.  The animals either already know how to do these things or you are teaching them, but it doesn’t really matter which; because, like a substitute school teacher, they have to hear it from you.   Make them stand, make them turn, make them back, wait again while you hook, pull something, repeat.  This can be more difficult than it sounds and this is where you start.  Feel free to give me a call or PM if I can be of more help.  Donn  6078494442

[Donn Hewes]

If I could make a couple suggestions;  First look at the thread “trouble getting started” as some of these ideas will be related.   (under – training work animals).  More and more I find my self telling folks that I will give you two conflicting answers to think about.  I guess this is what makes it an art.

First – All ways pay attention to what is going on for the animal.  It is likely not the length of the pole or yoke height, but it could be.  It is likely a green horse that is unsure of what you want / intend.  It has also developed it’s own idea about what it would like to do.   Is the animal relatively calm, but just backing? or is it really nervous, or excited?  This helps determine how much pressure we apply to the situation.

Second  – block out what is going on for the animal.  Focus on what you are presenting to the animal.  They want leadership.  You should be calm, relaxed, and you should be certain that what you are doing is right and what the final out come will be.  You can send this message to the animal.  If you are not that certain you may need to fake that.  That makes it a little harder.

From the other thread; Carl’s pointed stick can be used effectively in this case.  Try to let the animal back into.  That will reduce the overall energy involved and they will believe they have done this to them selves.  Work slowly, calmly, and determined.

Realize please that plowing with a green horse and a green teamster can cause really problems.  If this horse is not ready for this difficult and challenging task, I would wait until the animal has successfully pulled other things.  Logs, harrows, stone boat all come to mind.

[Donn Hewes]

I think the answers above give a lot of good advice.  As Carl says “It is not corrective” because we are not focused on what the animal didn’t do, we are focused on what is going to do because we are going to ask it.  essential you are using the basic pressure and release training.  In pressure and release we start with the light pressure (getup or kiss), we quickly add a slight increase in pressure ( The voice, the extra touch, etc) as a means of helping the animal figure out what we want (what we will insist on really).  This is a common problem for green animals and beginning teamsters.  I often ask folks to take a second to think about the technique they have already used with their hands and voice.  I only say this because there is an opportunity for the teamster to advance their skills a little from learning from the reluctant pony.   How well did they make contact with the animal before they asked it to go?  smoothly?  Did they follow through until the animal felt the contact?  When I make contact on a green or reluctant animal I will try to turn their head alittle.  Just a little more pressure on one side that the other.  Was there a sense of timing between the contact and the voice command?

Carl is right, that many signals ( the lines, whips, etc, can be difficult to control).  It is easy to start out intending to send one message and end up sending another.  The light touch with the twicht or straight stick. can help avoid this.  The energy that I am channeling at this point is important.  I am calm and relaxed, While I am in no great hurry; I also know exactly how this will end.  It is never in doubt and my working animal will learn to read that.  Good luck.

[Donn Hewes]

Another way to get hay rained on is to have it getting rained on the day it is mowed.  This is a risky trick, but it can work in years where the hay windows are short, but the rains are light and the soils are still relatively dry.  This is really my preference for getting hay rained on if there seems to be no way to make hay with out getting rained on, which some years just seems to be the case.  It would be interesting to know how folks get their weather forecasts.  I am checking the NOAA weather 18 times a day it seems, and my Amish neighbors obviously only get second hand weather forecasts from anyone that passes by.   Some times my detailed forecast is a huge benefit.  Other times they do better with no forecast at all.  For me there is a trick to having all the forecasts and then knowing how much to gamble!

[Donn Hewes]

I have seen, and ridden the I & J pulling a JD baler and it worked OK, Not good enough in that circumstance to suit me; but it was at a field days and we may not have had the weight in the tires or something.  I have also seen the GD baler at HPD.  I would really like to hear from someone that bales their hay all summer with a GD cart as I am unsure which carts, and how many horses it will take to make it really go.   I can only speak for my self, but plugging more than once a day would probably be what I would consider not working for day to day use.  That is just me,  I also don’t want a baler that only works with small windrows or perfect hay.

[Donn Hewes]

Speaking as one who bales about 2500 to 3000 bales a year with a gas powered PTO cart I can tell you why I do it.  I like it.   I have used this set up for about 6 years now.   I don’t like running a tractor.  Not for a minute; not for a day.

My PTO cart has a quiet honda motor, and uses 5 gals. of gas for every 1000 bales produced.  It is good challenging work for a team of four when loading a wagon towed behind the baler.  I work flatish ground with some side hill, therefore I must be careful when turning at the ends of the fields to not let a heavy wagon push me all over.  Fun challenging, honest and we fill about three to five wagons a day.  That is mostly governed by how many we want to put in the mow!

I have run a haybine (didn’t like it as much as the sickle bar mower); and a combine.  I just bought another AC all crop combine and am looking forward to running that with the PTO cart.

[Donn Hewes]

That sounds like a great deal.  I think that will pull your mower just fine.  I would love to hear from folks using GD carts to pull balers.  Just curious about how well it works for them; what balers,  number of animals, etc.   If you could encourage some one to make a post here that would be cool.  Good luck.

[Donn Hewes]

Short of spending days in the field with these GD baling systems i think Andy’s anylisis is about right.  I remember having a friend that had an early teamster 2000.  it seemed like a good machine and they liked it.  But it would not run the brush hog they had hoped it would.   I have always felt that for gd carts the weight needs to match the task.  Watch next week for pictures of the Case vc tractor.  I am hoping it is the perfect platform for pulling my tedder.   I brought it home yesterday and with in 5 minutes we had locked up the transmission!  Should be fun.

[Donn Hewes]

Jl Holt,  Are you planning a home made cart  to pull a baler?   I think all the ground driven baling I have ever seen was only working under the best conditions, with perfect windrows.  possibly the best ground driven baler i have seen is the JD baler conversions out of Ohio?  That is an efficient (as can be for GD) machine.  I am pretty sure I will go to loose hay before I go to the GD baler.  Just my two cents.

[Donn Hewes]

My Grimm has four bars.  There are also climatic and soil differences that explain slightly different methods and preferences.   For me raking up hay before the rain really depends on a lot of factors.  How dry is the hay now?  How dry is the ground (I mean soil moisture over the last few weeks).  What is the predicted weather for the next couple days (a chance of rain tonight and then more good weather, or did they change it to 60% chance of rain every day).  Lots of factors.  My problem is at 6 or 8 acres it is a lot of work for a gamble, I need to be pretty sure of making the hay.  Like I said bedding I can make with a lot less effort.  I like the fact that we all have slightly different ideas about how we like to make hay; I know after ten years of making hay all summer I am still  getting better and learning all the time.

[Donn Hewes]

Last sept. I had a Suffolk mule born, and this week I had a percheron mule born.  I own the Jack and he is a good size so I am pretty sure my mules will be big!  You can check out some of my pictures at: picasaweb.google.com/mulemandonn

[Donn Hewes]

Some of the I and J cart do have two speeds.  Also Neal Perry found the use of the transmission for different speeds useful.  I think there are two reasons for this.  Some equipment will work at a wider range of PTO speeds and still be effective.  it is also a little difficult to accurately predict the horses ground speed.  A change of .5 mph might change PTO 20%.   Like the above question, What is the added drag of the transmission and is it worth it.  I will be setting my   Cart up for three abreast of the bat.

If you can down shift one gear, but it makes it pull easier, but it is still working as needed, then this is a good level of flexibility.

[Donn Hewes]

Welcome, i am a big fan of mules my self.  I just had one born the other night; and I think he will get big!

[Donn Hewes]

I think the stopping is a good idea.  I had not seen a PTO cart with that but it makes a ton of sense.  I guess it would depend on what it costs.   When you let something stop as the horses stop you are asking it to plug (because it will slow before it stops).  Stopping the team and letting the tool drift to a stop would  be good.  I bet on Neal’s tractor set up he can put in the clutch and the PTO is free.  I hope the one I an bringing home is like that but to tell you the truth, I am not sure.  As with all things PTO cart, I think it really depends on what exactly you want to pull.

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