[Does’ Leap]

@highway 31316 wrote:

The pins we used go all the way through the runner and are bent over and mortised into the bottom of the runner. This is how my bob sled bunk irons are held in place also.

ED

Hey Ed:

That makes sense and seems plenty rugged. I mistakenly thought the pins only went down 4 or 5″ in the runner. I believe my runners are 48″ outside to outside, but I will check later.

George

[Does’ Leap]

@Bradbury Johnson 31012 wrote:

George-
This project required new wood (oak) as well as almost all new steel. John and I milled oak for two new runners (4×6″) as well as main bunk (8×8″) and top plate (4×8″). Some of the steel was salvageable, but badly worn. Because this is a tool that I use to make part of my living in the winter months, I decided to spend a bit more and have the steel pieces fabricated. I did resuse pins, reinforcing plates on front ends of runners, some fasteners, and runner steel (which I may use as a second layer tack welded onto the first layer for easier replacement when worn out). I figure that the new steel we shaped will last my lifetime of work and beyond. The other reason that we fabricated much of the steel was that the design was quite different on the old sled and I changed to a design similar to Carl Russell’s, which is a much sturdier design.
-Brad

Hey Brad:

Ready for some questions? Here goes:

1. Do you have any pictures of your new sled?
2. Did you make moccasin runners?
3. Is the “top plate” you mentioned just as wear piece attached to your bunk that is meant to be replaced or does it have another purpose?
4. Did you use mild steel for the fabricated pieces? How about the runner steel? I like the idea of tacking a second layer of runner steel on.

I am back out to the woods this morning to finish up a load of logs. Hemlock prices are up – $300/mbf straight through with premiums for long logs.

George

[Does’ Leap]

@highway 31284 wrote:

George,

Are you tallking about the bolts holding the shoes on the runners?

Ed

I am talking about where the bunks attach to the runners via the 1″ steel pin. Judging from your pictures, it looks as if the pin is driven right into your runner. If that’s the case, I think those pins will loosen after a while. When I first assembled my scoot, I had to really hammer my bunks down through my pins to get them to sit on the runners. Even after only 2 thousand feet of logs and 5 chords of wood, the 1″ holes through my bunks have worn to the point where I don’t need to hammer them down through the pins onto the runners – they slip right down. With the scoot irons (I think that’s what Mitch calls them), the pins are only wearing on the bunks. This is no big deal as it gives your scoot more slop. Here’s is a picture of a scoot iron I made:

George

[Does’ Leap]

Hey Ed:

Your scoot looks great. I am certainly not a scoot expert, but I suggest making up some scoot irons instead of pinning down through your runners. My scoot really takes a beating in the woods – riding up over rocks and small stumps, slamming into things etc – and I would be concerned about those pins working lose.

George

[Does’ Leap]

So far, so good. I am going to order another.

George

[Does’ Leap]

Tim:

Great video, thank you. Who is your cameraman/woman? How long and thick are your chains for cross-chaining?

George

[Does’ Leap]

Carl:

Do the “factors” on the tool from Ben Meadows have to do with mean stand diameter? When you are cutting a non-marked stand, do you give an educated guess on mean stand diameter or do you actually take a random sample and calculate. I want to cut and skid wood responsibly to the benefit of my woodlot. I don’t necessarily want to bring my calculator out to the woods and review quadratics. I’ve done some reading, taken a few “webinars” from Cornell, and consulted from time to time with my forester. With these tools and a decent head on my shoulders can I do an adequate job of managing my forest? If so, how would you go about it as a non-forester?

George

[Does’ Leap]

Carl:

Regarding chaining down the load using your chaining method: is it important to have the loops that go around your bunks toward the outside of the scoot for larger loads? Those loops tend to drift toward the center (with no load) and I find myself having to arrange them toward the outside edges of the bunks unless I am chaining down one large log.

George

[Does’ Leap]

@Carl Russell 31043 wrote:

#1. if the evener pivots in front of the nose chains the angles will work against each other under load causing changes in pressure against the horse through harness.

#2 The reason we hitch to the draw chain back under the bunks is so that the draft pull is against a strong portion of the runner, and under the load, as opposed to right angle pressure against the nose of the runner. So running the draw chain through the nose ring can actually creat too much lateral pull against the nose of the runner….. at least in my experience

#3 George you only need 15º of movement on that pole. It really shouldn’t be allowed to create a sharp angle….. remember the horses need to be moving forward to have power while turning anyway, so while this will allow better turning of the scoot, yo really can’t expect the same maneuverability as with a bobsled.

#4 Also I prefer to have my evener on top of the pole, as if the pull lifts the pole under the front of the loaded logs it can get jammed against a log when trying to turn. I also like to hitch the evener close to the front of the load, giving better lift, and keeping pole length down, so I actually can’t hook the draw chain through the nose ring.

Carl

Carl and Mitch:

Great discussion here. Like Mark, I am trying to piece it together. I read this thread yesterday morning and took out my scoot trying to put your comments into context. I numbered the comments above to make my questions/comments clearer. These questions are not meant as a challenge to either of you – just trying to figure out how this thing works. Here goes:

#1. Carl, are you talking about Mitch’s scenario here with the draw chain going through the ring on the nose chain? The question in my mind is does the turning happen solely from sweeping the horses in one direction thus scooting the opposite runner forward or should some pressure on the nose chain help facilitate this turn? Is this the crux of the disagreement between Carl and Mitch? Also, based on your picture Carl, it seems that your evener is pivoting in front of your nose chain, no?

#2 If the draw chains are attached to or fed through the nose ring I can see how that would put pressure on the nose but I don’t see the forces acting against each other. For example if the horse sweep left, this would simultaneously tighten the right nose chain and front runner while scooting the right runner foward, correct? Carl, can you elaborate on “how the angles will work against each other under load causing changes in pressure against the horse through harness?”

#3 Carl, are suggesting I have too much play in my pole here? Also, are you talking about 15 degrees using the bunk as the base. If so, it looks pretty close to 15 degrees to me. Irregardless, I dropped two links in my nose chain to tighten things up as I was getting some jackknifing going down hill. Mitch, how tight or lose are your nose chains?

#4 I tried hooking the evener above and below the pole and it doesn’t seem to make much difference in functionality either way as the are both hooked more or less to the same spot under the bunk. Either way it seems one is going to be rubbing up against the other.

Right now I am dropping two links from the end of my trace chains. When I ground skid, I drop only one link so the evener does not ride up on the horses. I plan on shortening my draw chain slightly so that I only have to drop one link on my scoot. That way I can leave my scoot and go right to ground skidding and back to the scoot without fussing with my trace chains.

George

[Does’ Leap]

Geoff:

I do the same as you – starting at the base of the tree I walk down on its left using the tree as support when possible.

George

[Does’ Leap]

@highway 31031 wrote:

Nice work George. Truck side chain latch’s also work well for bridle chain quick releases. And there is no fabricating involved.

Ed

Hey Ed, What do those truck chain latches sell for and where do you buy them?

Mitch, I was hoping to meet you at the logging workshop in MA, but no luck. Would love to see some pictures of your scoot and horses.

George

[Does’ Leap]

I headed out to the woods yesterday afternoon to give it a try. I ground skidded one tree’s worth of hemlock logs to my scoot and loaded them up. Based on a couple of Carl’s tips, it was relatively fast and smooth. I centered screwed a couple of 2x6s on the runners for a better place to ride when the scoot is not loaded.

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Oi5sXTsE7dk/TuvCiL9yDiI/AAAAAAAABE0/tVABSSHL8TE/s800/P1030535.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Hitkp_c4Lys/TuvClu0ILVI/AAAAAAAABE4/JnqA_h3LxH4/s800/P1030536.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LeQMZ97DSbw/TuvCpnULb6I/AAAAAAAABE8/zTxumu-sh8c/s512/P1030537.JPG[/IMG]

This load scaled out to 360 feet. The terrain was mostly down hill with a few inclines. The horses pulled it well with ease on the downhill while the inclines got their attention. I think a 500 foot (more with better logs or pine) load would be fine for them given the terrain. In contrast, the 18′ hemlock log on the viewer’s right (on the landing) scaled at 265 feet. This was yarded with my arch in a cradle hitch and required considerably more effort than the scoot load. It is also worth noting that the top 8″x10’log on the scoot scaled out to 20 feet – ouch! That is a lot of weight for such little footage – worth about $4.25 after trucking.
[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EHhcr8F9CUA/TuvCtZiYhZI/AAAAAAAABFA/oBX20guI3q8/s800/P1030538.JPG[/IMG]

Question: Is there a problem having my evener above the pole (currently it is below)? That way I could loosen the front side strap on my off horse, detach the evener from the scoot, unhitch from the pole and start ground skidding. This transition takes a little more time with the evener under the pole.

George

[Does’ Leap]

I spent one rainy day fabricating bridle chains, the U-brackets or staples that fit over the runners and one bridle chain catch/release hardware (I was given the other one by a friend). Here is a picture of the old:
[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fdTxWs8HO88/TuvCSL33riI/AAAAAAAABEo/H1jKZ7y-kVc/s512/P1030532.JPG[/IMG]

And the new……………..

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pIaSUjeUE0s/TuvCJEt_0rI/AAAAAAAABEc/MD2x3BWFY-4/s512/P1030529.JPG[/IMG]

This is made with 1/2″ round stock with the needle being 1/2″ eye bolt. It was easier and faster that trying to mimic the old style as I don’t have a forge (although I plan to build a gas forge this winter). It is hard to see in the picture, but I had to heat and bend the eye bolt to accept the chain. It works well.

This is probably something I should have consulted you all about but I drove pins in front of my U-brackets (those are 3/8″ x 1 1/4″ flatbar) to prevent the u-brackets from riding up against my bunks thereby limiting the back-and-forth scoot action of the runners. The pins also provide a place to hang the bridle chains…………
[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YBzPPL0Q2Z4/TuvCX9uUOyI/AAAAAAAABEs/pESBvW4HUzM/s512/P1030533.JPG[/IMG]

Here is a picture of the bridle chain (enough to go under the runners) welded to some old skidder chain (which attach to my U-bracket). Beefy enough Carl? If not, I figure I can add another section of chain under the runners.

Finally, on Carl’s recommendation, I lengthened my pole chains. Long enough Carl? If not, I can lengthen it more. It is adjustable via the clevis that attaches to the ring.
[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8I2ejHdnApI/TuvCeAEZ9yI/AAAAAAAABEw/4hz1FdkHdL4/s800/P1030534.JPG[/IMG]

[Does’ Leap]

@Bradbury Johnson 30993 wrote:

My old sled was not in good enough condition to be rebuilt, so we had to basically start from scratch.

Hey Brad, can you elaborate on this? I am not in the market for a bobsled (yet), but I would like to have a better idea about what is salvageable and what is not. Are you talking wood, hardware, or both?

Thanks.

George

[Does’ Leap]

@dominiquer60 30893 wrote:

I read this entire thread last night while many of you were off gallivanting in Athol 🙂 I thought that I would add to it seeing as my questions are along similar lines and it would keep all of this great and related advice together…………I welcome any advice on this matter,

Erika:

To echo what others have said, I believe a smaller saw is generally more fatiguing than a larger one. I have purchased progressively larger saws over the past 15 years settling on the Husq. 372 XP. Although I do most of the cutting, Kristan runs the saw on occasion and did more chainsaw work in the past (mostly blocking wood). Every larger saw I bought, she would pick it up (new) and complain about the weight. After cutting with it, she would concur how that bigger saws are easier on the body and get the job done quicker. Of course there is a limit to this. I am not interested in getting a bigger saw, despite the power. There is a sweet spot given your physical stature and what you are cutting.

Carl also brings up an essential point on having a sharp chain. I am surprised by how many folks pay to have their chain sharpened. Invest in a decent vice and files and importantly a flat file and raker gauge. When I first started cutting wood I sharpened my saw teeth like a pro and the thing still wouldn’t cut. Finally,someone told me to file down my rakers (I use a .004 raker gauge). Voila! I was off to the races. Sharp teeth and raker depth go hand in hand. A sharp 40 cc saw will put my dull 72 cc saw to shame. I am not sure these are available for smaller saws, but I recommend single raker, chisel tooth chains (compared to a double raker safety chains with rounded teeth). These chains cut much more aggressively and I believe are just as safe with proper cutting technique. It is also a lot easier to file down your rakers, especially as you wear your chian down.

Lastly, I am not a fan of short bars. If you are blocking wood, you have to lean over that much further. A lot of guys who block sugar wood all day around here run 24″ bars minimum. I run a 20″ bar for all around use.

George

[Author]

Posts