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Mitch, Francis Foster didn’t own Ben’s mill but the mill from which he purchased his ash runners for the sled (a brief scene in the movie).

George

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@Jen Judkins 16743 wrote:

George, Easy Boot makes their whole line including the Epics up to size 4. I’ve got an order in with Renedage Boots (http://www.renegadehoofboots.com) for a custom pair of Ice boots for Reno, but I probably won’t see them till spring:rolleyes:. I had to build a cast of his foot to get these built, and I’m still not sure how much they will set me back.

Hey Jen, what’s the verdict on these boots?

George

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I already talked to him about it and yes, he does have hardware. I have a trip planned. He was telling me stories about bobbing logs as a boy. At 12 years old, he got special permission from the school superintendent (after being declared truant) to leave school at 9:45 provided his work was done for the day. Then he headed to the woods to meet up with Frances. His father and hired man served as choppers while he twitched and yarded logs and pulp with a bob.

George

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I purchased my team from his son Archie – lives in Hardwick. Nice fellow.

George

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Here are some pics of how I set up my dogs. I wanted them adjustable for different size logs and have the ability to hitch as close as possible.
[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xURYYvC2AX8/TyvYBrD0BlI/AAAAAAAABLI/UkHMB6dZRgw/s800/P1030593.JPG[/IMG]
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I tried using them on this large beech log (below) that I was ground skidding with a single horse – no go. They kept popping out despite setting them with a 6 lb maul (carried in the britchen ring). Any tips from folks who use them? I also didn’t like the fact that I couldn’t figure out how to put a roll on the log (like I do w/ a choker chain).

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0LhMP_WDEY8/TzMfnBNDfuI/AAAAAAAABOU/R65-iodXHZg/s512/P1030630.JPG[/IMG]

As an aside, this monster measured 25″ at breast height and had over a chord of wood in it (http://extension.unh.edu/Forestry/Docs/firewood.pdf).
[IMG]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lESk2-J7nek/TzMgFYdPXaI/AAAAAAAABPM/99UrR0mdgio/s800/P1030637.JPG[/IMG]

George

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Great stuff here. It is amazing to think that this “conversation” on this scale could not have happened even 20 years ago, not to mention 100 years ago when use of sleds was common. Needless to say, I am sufficiently convinced – shorter runner, bunk back, load forward. I’ll keep you posted on its acquisition. Thanks to all.

George

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Carl, you make some convincing points. More convincing than anything is that you have logged a lot of hours behind a sled. However, there are a couple of points that I still am not getting. For arguments sake lets assume that Dwayne’s sled has just as much wood in front of the bunk as yours so that we can concentrate on bunk placement.

1. By placing the bunk back on a fixed runner you are getting greater leverage to lift the load – agreed. However, you are getting less lift with the bunk further back. If you lift one end of a 2×4 off the ground 6″ and measure which section of the 2×4 is higher – the middle or 2/3 back, the middle is higher. Placing the bunk in the middle give you greater lift but less mechanical advantage compared with it further back.
2. With the bunk back I agree that is should be easier to turn the sled, but at a cost. More weight on the back of the runners means poorer tracking with more likelihood of slipping on a side hill. It should also adversely effect the ability of the sled to float on snow. Ask any skier, leaning back means a loss of control.
3. By centering the load on the runner you are distributing that load across the whole runner. It is the runner that facilitates movement of the load through less friction. As you move the bunk back you are disproportionately loading the back of the runners and centering the weight over less of the runner. This would create tilling in certain conditions as Andy mentioned. Irregardless of the conditions, you are still creating more friction this way compared to centering the weight over the entire runners.

Ok, have at it:)…. Tim H, you have done a lot of work in this area. Any thoughts?

George

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Carl:

Thanks for the input and comparison. It seems as if there is a trade-off between getting the horses close to the load vs. getting as much of the load in front of the bunk as possible. By having the bunk set back with more runner in front, does that increased fulcrum help lift the weight or lever it backward by lifting the nose? I haven’t spoken with Dwayne about this specifically, but it seems like he builds these sleds primarily for winter use. Do you think any of these differences in design have to do with a year-round vs. winter-only sled? Finally, you mention that the horses shouldn’t use much lateral pressure to turn the sled. Does that mean you don’t gee or haw (I use these commands as turning in place) your horses to turn your sled?

George

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I spent and interesting and educational day with Dwayne Langmaid – a sled-maker, horseman, and consummate craftsman in Walden, Vermont. Dwayne learned from the likes of Ben Thresher (from the documentary “Ben’s Mill”) and other old-time sled makers. We looked at several different types of sleds and discussed what makes a good sled. Dwayne’s idea of bobsled design differ in several ways from Brad and Carl’s bobsleds. Without any firsthand knowledge of using a bobsled, it is hard for me to figure out what makes most sense for my situation. I thought I would list the differences (at least the ones I remember) and open it up for comments and discussion. I would be interested to read what Carl, Brad, John P, and others have to say. Here it is:

2. He likes a swing bunk, not a fixed bunk. Dwayne uses the same chaining method as Carl (as far as I can tell) and asserts that there is not too much swing to the bunk, but just enough to help around turns.
4. He likes a longer runner – 6’ on the ground plus the sweep of the nose. He states there is more floatation in a longer runner with plenty of maneuverability.
6. He likes to place his bunk centered on the runner or an inch in front of center. He related an argument amongst old sled makers. Some believed that the slightly ahead-of-center bunk facilitates the horses lifting the load. Irregardless, this bunk placement is different from Carl’s sled where the bunk is 2’ from the rear of the sled. Carl, is this measurement OC or to the edge of the bunk?
8. He does not make stake pockets on his bunks. Brad and Carl, do you use stakes much to keep your logs from rolling off the opposite side of the sled when loading?
10. His gooseneck does not rest on the top of the role, but sits on the back side of the roll toward the bunk. He says this facilitates hitching the horses closer to the load.
12. He does not use stabilizers that go from the role the back of pole. He feels that the feather bolts, gooseneck and mortised pole are plenty strong and that the horses might hit their hocks on those braces in certain circumstances. This might only be the case with the gooseneck on the back of the role putting the horses that much further back?
14. He uses 6x6s for runners. He has a full 6×6 under the bunk but the rest of the runner is scalloped out on the sides. The tails of his runners are also tapered on the top side.
15. His likes to place the dip in his rave irons (for the skid) in back of the bunk instead of in front. He feels like by placing the skid in the front of the bunk, you are more likely to catch the back corner of the bunk with your log as you roll it onto the bunk.

George

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Brad and Carl:

Regarding the runner length, is that 6′ on the ground (i.e. the straight section of the runner) or 6′ total (including the sweep in the nose)?

George

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Teaching her to drive has worked out well and I am proud of her. 12 year olds are not always receptive to constructive criticism. I have tried to keep my comments to a minimum and Zoe has exercised patience as well. Once she understood basic safety issues regarding where she is in relation to the log and safely hooking and unhooking the log, I pretty much let her go with decreasing supervision as she became more comfortable. After one session of yarding firewood she said to me “now I understand why you spend so much time in the woods with the horses!” Cheers to that.

George

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Carl and Brad (others?) what are the length of your runners? From what I figure shorter runners (6 foot?) would give greater maneuverability, but less stability and flotation than a longer runner (8 foot?). Is there variation in length or is there a “standard” for bobsleds? Carl, you mentioned 6x6s might be overkill and that you had 4×6 runners. Is the concern the extra weight?

George

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I liked the idea of the box and added it – serves as a seat too. I really like logging single when the extra horsepower is not needed. You can get places where two cannot and it is easier handling a single tree compared with an evener. Prior to the stoneboat and box, I loaded everything on the horses hames. This works, but the stoneboat is much better. No need to unload everything when you need to twitch logs, just unhook from the boat and go. I can also pack in hay for the horse and a peavey. Thanks Mitch and Tim for the input.

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[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5X9zGYY_CT0/TzB6-V0dyvI/AAAAAAAABOA/Ka1PAIJWzjQ/s800/P1030628.JPG[/IMG]

George

George

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Brad, thanks for the recommendation. I will contact John.

@Carl Russell 32275 wrote:

Also, bridle chains should be attached to the roll…

Carl

Carl, why not attach to the runners?

George

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Jay, I missed your earlier comment about meeting this sled maker. I have a tentative plan to go Thursday am. I am headed up with a friend of mine. Let me know if that works.

Tom, I should have mentioned those loads of 600-700 feet are the top end of what I load on my scoot. Average loads are in the 400-500 foot range give or take depending on the conditions. But my reasoning still stands – larger loads at longer distances make sense.

Carl, 10 years working exclusively with oxen, that is something. I would be interested in reading about what you see as the advantages and disadvantages of oxen and horses working in the woods. Regarding the bobsled, thanks for posting those pictures. Can I take it you have full moccasin runners when you write “I have always had full moccasin runners……?????” I tried finding your method of chaining logs on a bob and came up short. Can you direct me to that thread or article? Is that a u-bolt that extends through your top bunk for chaining logs? Do you use the “weavers bind” (see attachment)? This sled-maker suggests 6×6 yellow birch runners tapered down for the moccasin runners. Any thoughts on that? Finally, I notice you have an indentation on your rave irons in back of the bunk for a skid. I have seen a sled with indentations on both sides of the bunk. Any advantage to that?

George

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