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Eli:

What type of moisture probe do you have and what did you pay for it? Can you test hay in the windrow or does it have to be baled? What is the moisture range that you shoot for?

George

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Hi Donn:

I think you hit some important points in your first post. Namely that good haymaking is about a combination of knowledge/judgement/experience and good practices. The two go hand-in-hand. One good practice I have taken from this forum is the benefits of tedding early (i.e. within a few hours of mowing) and that tedding has diminishing returns as the hay gets drier. I still tend to tedd a lot – usually a minimum of twice and sometimes up to 4-5 times if the time window is extremely tight. Like you, I rake when I am ready to bale. The question in when to start raking. Since we dry hay to the lowest common denominator, this can be challenging because 90% of the field can be dry and I have to wait for the rest to catch up. However, my limited experience tells me that some green batches will dry in the bale.

I have no doubt that a rotary rake could increase hay quality. However, I think it is easy to latch on to technology as a substitute for experience and knowledge. We purchase 25% of our hay from a retired dairy farmer who has turned to wholesale vegetable production. He farms rich bottom-land and puts up outstanding hay with a side-delivery rake and a hodgepodge of old equipment. His hay is almost always very green and – for lack of better word – moist. He seems to know when just when to bale in order to hit that sweet spot. There have been several instances where I almost brought back wagons of hay b/c I feared they would mold or worse. With the exception of the odd dusty bale, they hay has always been dry and dust free.

George

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OK, I guess I will stay out of the woods for a while. How is the ice damage in NY, ME, and central VT? It seems as bad here as it was in ’98.

George

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Jay, nice looking shed. It looks well designed and productive. I’ve never seen a pto-driven mill. Do you do custom sawing or is it just for your own use?

George

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Outstanding! Tim, your videos have inspired me to make a few of my own. They require some effort and patience, but are powerful tools to communicate what we do and how we do it.

Can you write about how you fixed your camera for the various shots? What editing program did you use?

George

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I think Donn hit all the right questions. Those rotary rakes are pretty slick, but very expensive. We put up 1500 – 2000 bales and can’t justify a rotary rake. Try amortizing that rotary rake over the amount of bales you plan to make over the next 10 years and see if it is worth it. We use a JD side delivery rake behind a forecart and it works well. Like Donn, I do not dry in the wind row. I rake when it is ready to bale.

George

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Here’s a video (not mine) on how to set a up and use a Picasa account:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ecwH0wOyq8[/video]

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Example of an Embedded Photo:

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Carl:

Nice article. I like that it went beyond the nuts and bolts and touched on your approach/philosophy to working with horses. I particularly like this quote:

“Don’t put your thought processes into developing a horse you can trust,” he says. “Put more effort into developing a horse that can trust you.”

Ever considered writing a book? “Logging with Horses”. Your experience, approach, and writing skills would produce a real gem.

George

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I have always wondered about mounting a winch on my logging arch and building a double bunk wagon/forwarder (8-10′ OC) that would attach to the arch. You could park the wagon up in the woods and use your arch to twitch wood. The winch would also come in handy for grabbing logs inaccessible to the arch. You could then use the winch to load the logs on the forwarded like in the video. My big question has always been how to stabilize the arch when winching? Large wheel chocks?

George

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I don’t have any experience with dump carts, but I would not worry about a single axle cart if you found one. I use a single axle 85 bushel manure spreader on a forecart. It is well balanced and does fine with the forecart.

George

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Amen. When I have completed the work on my woodlot, I will likely venture out and take on some local logging jobs. If I were to do that, I would not pay stumpage. I would charge an hourly rate for my services – residual stand improvement, wildlife habitat, improved access, etc. From that I would deduct log receipts. I think this is a clearer arrangement for both the land owner and the logger and might help distinguish my services from the conventional logger who pays stumpage based on market value of the logs and his/her expenses.

Whether or not I could get any work based on this arrangement remains to be seen. I think the key is education. Most folks can’t tell the difference between black cherry and ash or don’t notice bear claw marks on a beech tree. In your slideshow presented in Athol, I really liked the idea of creating a woodland aesthetic – trails, a bench here and there – that will encourage land owners to get out and enjoy their woods. Once they realize the beauty and benefits of their forest, I think folks would be more willing to pay for its improvement.

George

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I have never made the effort to construct a brow (thanks for the correct use of the term Brad) as I am usually able to find areas that are suitable for loading. I also find my loading areas change (ideally) so as to minimize ground skidding. However, I can see how a brow would be beneficial on steep terrain.

Carl, I agree with your mantra of “working horses in the woods”. Although I make part of my income selling logs, logging with horses is much more about improving my woodlot and honing my skills as a teamster/horse logger. I used to get disappointed when I didn’t have a certain amount of footage on the landing at the end of the day. I slowly began to realize that this work is about much more than that. There is nothing like working my team in the woods – the combination of physical and intellectual challenges combined with completing vital work as a “team” with my horses is unmatched. Since I am not trucking horses and paying stumpage, I can really take my time and still cover my minimal costs.

George

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Carl:

Yes, staking the logs seems to be the key I have missed. I will try that. Perhaps the Barden cart would be more suited to this terrain. My Forest arch is great for going down the steeps, but has a tendency to tip over moving across the contour with the hummocks, ledge outcrops, and other obstacles. I am presently ground skidding to a “brow” (correct term?) or staging area about 500′ and yarding with a scoot (for saw logs) and my arch (for firewood). I haven’t figured out a good system for setting up a brow in very steep terrain. It has been worth it to me to twitch on the ground a little further than I like to a better brow rather than trying to load the scoot in a difficult area. I am curious how you load your bobsled in terrain like this. My main problem in past attempts is to keep my logs from rolling down hill before they are loaded and then preventing them from rolling over or even tipping the sled.

I am using many of your techniques for logging steep ground including rolling logs down hill with the peavey and using “slue” logs across the contour to great effect. I had a difficult situation yesterday when a 20′ butt log jumped my slue log. The horses simultaneously were pulled into the slue log while they turned up the hill to balance things out. At this point they were tight against the slue log unable to move the log up hill. The chain was tight and it took me a while to extricate them from the log. I replaced some of the 6-12″ slue logs double or triple logs of greater diameter in some locations to prevent this.

Regarding the access to this site, my biggest problem is on my main skid road. The road has excavator-installed large sweeping swales/water bars that have worked great. There is one section that has a spring coming right out into the road that the operator missed. This is my problem spot. At the end of the day I spend a little time reshaping the water bar. When I am finished logging in this area I will install a log water bar per your instructions and try to maintain it.

George

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Thanks for the replies. Carl, I will give the log water bar another go. Perhaps I didn’t set the log low enough in the past leading to blow-outs while skidding. Brad, I agree that my log cart is much easier on water barns, but the area that I am working right now is too steep and tight for anything but ground skidding. The problem I am having is the larger saw logs that I can’t get off the ground while ground skidding. The butt-end tends to plow through anything in its path. I have been trying to figure a way of getting some lift while ground skidding (two chains, two swivels and a cradle hitch, dogs, etc.), but that might be another thread….

Cheers.

George

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