[Crabapple Farm]

I also think the shock collar is a bad idea – not a good way to win his trust.
I’ve had similar issues with my nigh ox.
I think it comes from being used to being driven from the front, in which case standing at the shoulder or behind is body language for wanting them to make a haw turn. While you aren’t saying it in words, he is seeing you say it with your body. And remember, body language is clearer to oxen than verbal. He thinks that he is following your directions.
What you need to do is clarify that you don’t want him veering into you – a tap on the rump to speed him up while saying his name. Slow down the off ox if necessary. This was more effective for me than rib-jabs.
But if they are used to being driven from the front, it will take a little while for them, particularly the nigh ox, to get used to you being in a different location. Particularly if you are switching back and forth. I change my position around depending on conditions, and think it is valuable to have oxen used to that, but with a new team you might want to try to limit how many variables you throw in to the training at this point. They still need some time to get used to you, and vice versa.
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

There are two versions of “sidestepping,” I think. The easier is the tight pivot, in which one ox backs up. With a pole on a cart, that can morph into a more true side step, but to side step without a pole is trickier (because they want to pivot). With a cart, a tight pivot command functions like a sidestep. It’s good to use a different command when you want the turn to not involve any forward action, so that they are clear on that expectation. Add something to haw and gee, such as “haw ’round” or “back gee”
I view sidestepping without a pole as an evolution of stall manners: “step over.”
Start by making your “step over” more specific, anytime you are working around them – say the ox’s name, then tell them to step (or put) in or out.
For me, in means towards the chain/pole/other ox, out the opposite, so they mean opposite things for each ox, directionally speaking. Once each of them individually understands step in and step out, you can try it in the yoke.
As Vicki suggested, face a fence or wall (don’t use an electric fence for this, use something solid) so forward is not an option. Then step the nigh one out (towards you), then the off one in. Repeat. They will try to pivot, most likely, and turn away from the wall/fence. Don’t let them.
Once they get it, and will do it when they are up against the wall, you can graduate them to facing a long log – a visible substantial line to help them understand the concept, but now a purely psycological barrier that they could step over if you weren’t telling them not to. After they get that you can try them in the open.
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

Here’s an off-the-shelf option, if you want to go for a drive while generating:
Ground-drive PTO forecart (there was a discussion about them a while back, I&J is currently making one).
Find a small pto generator that can run at 540 rpm and put it on a trailer (with a charger and battery).

You could make a homemade rig that would be more compact, probably. Belt, chain, or gears from the wheels to the generator. For what you’re talking about, you wouldn’t need a bull wheel like a baler uses, just decent tread. Think mower or manure spreader wheels.

Otherwise, a treadmill or sweep power could run a generator in the barnyard while you’re doing other things.

[Crabapple Farm]

I just was actually reading the proposed House bill that establishes the Food Safety Agency, and while it is true that it doesn’t mention NAIS, what it does say is that the new Agency is required to implement a system of “Traceability” of all food… Which sure sounds like animal tracking to me.

It doesn’t otherwise effect producers much, though seems like it might kill off a few more small slaughterhouses with red tape.

Carl – I applaud your independence. However, I make my primary living selling food, and to do that I need to let more than just close aquaintences know that I am doing what I am doing. I’ve got ads out in the world saying what I do. As a result of those internet listings, I’ve had a nice friendly USDA fellow stop by unannounced once already, playing “good cop.” We are well-versed in the applicable laws, so while I gave him an earful about how I thought they were wrong, all he found to tell me was that I should install security cameras in the barn so that bioterrorists won’t be able to break in and tamper with the meat in our chest freezer and make someone sick – not a requirement, just a suggestion. (I kid you not – apparently this is what the USDA worries about)
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

On the issue of tractors saving horses from having to work for people who hated them or were just not gifted with them:

Here’s a moral question:
Is an unhappy life better or worse than no life at all?
Is group extinction better than individual suffering?
Is an empty monoculture wasteland in which no animals suffer or die better than a diversified farm in which animals are being born, living, enjoying life and suffering and dying?

[Crabapple Farm]

Two old manure-moving technologies come to mind.
The first is a horse-drawn manure fork. I don’t know how widespread they were, I’ve only come across a couple. A cross between a pitchfolk and a slip scoop. The Fork part is beefy – three or four prongs forged out of one inch square stock coming to points. The fork is in a frame, so that it can flip over, and it is the frame hitched to the animals. I have one I found at an antique shop with a catch and release, I’ve seen another with a handle that you hold on to and adjust the digging angle, and then flip. If you’ve seen an old slip scoop, it’s pretty similar, just with a fork instead.
Using such a tool, you can just drag manure horizontally, so you can’t easily build a large pile, but you can turn a windrow.
Another thing I’ve seen pictures of is the “Rapier Muck Shifter,” apparently made in Britain around world war two. I saw it in “Humus and the Farmer” by Friend Sykes (I think it was reprinted in SFJ a few years back). Basically a grapple hook on a boom. His was engine driven, but it could be done with ropes and pulleys. If you wanted to go in for mechanical tinkering.
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

Unfortunately, there is a serious lack of availability of heirloom varieties of grain seed (except corn). I think because grains have been viewed so strongly as a commodity, the older landraces are almost all functionally extinct. There are probably fewer than a dozen old landrace wheats available in the US in quantity (Red Fife, Turkey, and Sonora are available if you search hard enough). And almost all the modern varieties (which is to say everything that is commercially available) are Patented, which imho is just wrong.
There are a few sources for small quantities of seed, http://www.sustainablegrains.org and http://www.growseed.org are two people I’ve gotten some wheat from, the first one has some varieties in quantity.
If anyone else knows of any sources for heirloom grains, I would love to hear about it.
Luckily the USDA gene bank has all the old varieties, so we and a few other folks have been trying to grow some out to make quantities available again.
On the larger seed question, Fedco is our main source (there’s a regional group order for cover crop/grain seed to cut down on shipping). Lakeview is a good source for organic seed in the Northeast.
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

Well, Erika, I’ll put out a contrarian opinion on the vaccine issue for you. I’m not a big vaccination fan, we don’t vaccinate the livestock for anything (i’m sure someone will think that horrible, but there it is). For what it’s worth, my daughter (2 yrs old) has only had a tetanus vaccine.
I recognize that there are some diseases out there that are real bad, and that may warrant vaccination. However, I tend to look at Health as a positive attribute (something you have) rather than a negative one (a lack of disease). Which is to say, I see disease as a sign of a lack of Health, rather than Health as a sign of a lack of disease. My understanding of vaccinations is that they are (or at least can be) an immunological shortcut, leading overall to a less effective immune system. They supply specific immunity but without a foundation, sort of like an over-educated specialist with no common sense or street smarts. I honestly have looked into human vaccines more than livestock vaccines, but I think that it holds true.
Vaccination, with antibiotics, props up and allows the modern system of livestock rearing. It doesn’t seem like all the vaccinating is making all those conventionally raised animals healthy.
If you aren’t planning on bringing the calves out in public or into contact with a lot of other animals, and if you aren’t going to go hang out in the sale barn then go home and do chores in the same clothes, then look for calves from a healthy herd, from someone who you can trust to be honest with you. Ask them if they’ve had problems with anything, and what they vaccinate against. And don’t worry too much about all the nasty diseases that could kill them. The commercial dairy folks have milk truck drivers, AI guys, and vets visiting their barns regularly. While they might scrub their boots, they are still going from farm to farm. Not to mention most commercial dairies buy in or sell animals fairly frequently – and I haven’t yet seen a custom hauler scrub THEIR boots. With that sort of traffic from farm to farm, there is more reason to worry.
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

@goodcompanion 5021 wrote:

What is a diamond bar? Hollow steel with a diamond-shaped profile?

Erik:
Yes, square stock on edge. I’ve got some older tools that fit 2″ stock, and some newer ones with clamps designed for 2 1/4″ (I think) – though there is enough leeway in the clamps that they are interchangeable. For heavier duty applications, I’ve seen solid square stock used. And with the tractor, I’ve bent a hollow one, so in some instances it’s justified.
It’s a pretty standard market vegetable farm tractor-mounted cultivator platform, which means an assortment of tools available.
Robert: I will definately report on how it works when I finally put one together.
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

@Robert MoonShadow 4754 wrote:

So, am I seeing what I think I see?!? Whether I am or it just gave me an idea, I think I’m looking at (for lack of better terminology) a ‘universal’ tool bar that has several different tools… the frame/handles are a seperate (stand alone) unit; you pull up & change out the tool –> plow blade, cultivator, hiller,etc. Like putting different implements onto a tiller or my weedeater’s powerhead –> pole pruner, mini-tiller, hedge trimmer, etc. If so, is it made commercially? I’m talking about for walk-behind implements. Or do these people at that site sell plans for it? Or anyone else? ‘Cuz I think that there’s a market for something like this… I know I’d buy one (if I can afford it!). Then I could just buy the various implements as I have the need and money for it. It’d save a lot on shipping weight, too. If it’s not already available, then perhaps I just gave someone a business idea. I’m new to all this, but I thought that I had heard that the idea’s used for toolbars that are ridden (I think in an article by Eric & Anne Nordell) or pulled by a forecart, but haven’t heard it applied to a walk-behind system. I’ve got 1 donkey & I’ve seen mention in this forum about others with just 1 horse/mule/etc. –> this would be so sweet. [And I’ll feel so dumb, if it’s already for sale here in the States!] Anyways, anyone w/ info on this, PLEASE let me know?

Robert, I also really like the look of the walking tool bar Promatta shows on their site. I used something similar many years back, and liked it. As a walking plow, it wasn’t as good as a purpose built one, but the chisel plow attatchment was handy. I think that in general purpose built tools will work a little better than a toolbar like that, but there is more expense (and storage space) involved, so for tools with less frequent use, being able to change them out on a toolbar makes sense.
I would love to see I&J or some one like them make such a thing, but until then i’m planning to make one myself before spring.
I’m going to make a diamond bar style, because I have a bunch of tools designed for mounting on a 3ph tractor 2″ diamond tool bar – cultivator shanks, chisel plow shanks, and a pair of Planet Jr. seeders. And I know I can easily get hilling disks and other cultivating tools to mount on a diamond bar too.
I’m going to make it mainly out of wood, with a wood-core angle iron diamond bar but a wooden beam. Light work shouldn’t require heavy construction. If I get it made and it works I’ll post a picture.
I think the toolbar is the easy part – wood or angle iron, the plow handles, guage wheels, and hitch point (which ought to be adjustable) are the tricky bits, but pretty basic really. The trick is figuring out a set of tools some one is already making with a universal attatchment system, and use that. I’m going with the 2″ diamond bar, you could also go with a flat bar mount (for danish s-tines, etc.).
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

@highway 4550 wrote:

He really is a nice horse and NEVER hurt my daughter when she was riding him. The two times in the past 4 years or so he did bolt with her on his back, she held on and rode it out. She is very experianced in english saddle and he really has a connection with her. He just may be a better riding horse with someone that knows what they are doing and not a true work horse. I know all horses are not both.

An option to consider (this is not a recommendation, just a thought) is riding while working. If he is more comfortable with someone riding than driving from behind, you or your daughter could ride while he pulls the sap scoot or firewood. There’s a picture or two on the photos page of folks cultivating this way with a single horse.
But if he has run away with your daughter on his back, adding a load of firewood bouncing along behind is not going to be safe at all.

[Crabapple Farm]

I think that it all has to do with what you expect to get out of your animals. If you are looking for a draft animal primarily, then steers will be better than cows. If you are looking for calves or milk primarily, with only occassional draft use, then cows make more sense.
Being pregnant and lactating are each roughly equal in caloric requirements to working hard. A working, pregnant, lactating cow will need more quantity and quality of feed than a steer of the same breed to stay in good condition. Even though the steer will be larger. Given unlimited access to feed, the steer will eat more, because his larger digestive system allows him to. He’ll just get fat.
Hoof wear is a balancing act – I don’t particularly like trimming cow feet, so I’d rather have an animal with sound feet that wear down as they grow, and don’t need much in the way of trimming. Of our cattle, it is the jersey cows whose feet tend to get overgrown (which is not a plus).
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

Miles-
Is the small outbuilding going to be their permanent home? Or just until the barn is built? If you just need to house them for their first year there, the calves need a lot less space then they will when they are grown.
My ox stall (I have Durhams) is in a 10×12 bay of the barn – ten feet wide. they have 8′ of length, plus about 18″ of manger (an open box on the floor, mainly to separate hay from bedding and one ox’s hay from the other’s). There’s a 30″ wide feed alley in front – 36″ would be much more comfortable, but it works.
I think ox teams are best housed in double stalls, without a divider between them. It gives you more room to work up around them, and keeps them as a team. I’ve got chains that I clip them into attatched in the outer lower corners, short enough so they can’t steal much hay from eachother (there’s a partition in the manger).
I think eight feet wide would be the minimum you could get away with for a mature team of Durhams, and you’d want that much length. My stalls for our jersey cows are 8′ overall, two feet in front of the stanchions for their heads, six feet behind. Also a double stall, 8′ wide, actually divided into three 32″ spots – one for each cow on the outsides, one in the middle for the person milking. An ayshire would need a longer stall than the jerseys, but I don’t know if she would need more width.
This is all assuming tie stalls of some sort, for loose box stalls they would need to be quite a bit bigger.
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

I think the problem with bulls that are handled some is that they view people as herdmates, not as “other.” Dairy bulls have a reputation for being nastier than beef bulls for this reason. An unmanageable beef bull is definately a dangerous creature, but more predictable than a mostly friendly one. You always know where you stand with a “wild” bull. A friendly bull does not see you as a threat but as kindred. Therefore, you are a creature that the bull can potentially dominate. Therefore, the bull will try. If he catches you by surprise, that can be very dangerous. You can clearly establish dominance over him, as Carl says, but he will take any opening you give him to question it.
-Tevis

[Crabapple Farm]

Cattle are creatures of habit. It sounds like your calf associates heading towards the barn with the teacher saying “class dismissed,” and so starts acting like a young hooligan. You need to disassociate walking towards the barn with the release from training. Make walking past the barn, or walking towards the barn then turning around and walking away again, part of your routine. That way the calf will never know when the lesson is going to be over. Even go to the barn, tie the halter to a post or gate or whatever, walk away briefly, then come back, untie the calf, and take him out for another walk. He gets excited because he expects to be released once you reach the barn – break that expectation.
-Tevis

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