[Andy Carson]

@near horse 26016 wrote:

Not to enter into your relationship stuff but gently remind your wife that she married you (I’m assuming) because you aren’t like everyone else 😮

It’s just normal ribbing, no big deal… When you think about and try different things, you have to be ready for a little teasing…:D

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the thoughts Tim. I am really much more into “min-till” than “no-till”anyway, I’m just thinking about possibilities. It seems that the applications of true no-till in a chemical free system might be somewhat limited to a few “special situations. For me personally, I would only be using it for cover crops and it seems strange to invest so much time and money in cover crop techniques… The broadcaster seemed to work just fine anyway and I’ve got alot of “irons in the fire” right now anyway… By the way, I don’t think I’m going to get any help hoeing from my wife if the weed control completely fails. She has really started asking why I am not “doing things like everyone else” or at least “like they used to”… She might be right, but I just feel compelled to do what makes sense to me, even if it’s not traditional. It’s nice to have someone to balance this out, I suppose, but I don’t want to get too “mushy”… 🙂

[Andy Carson]

Hey Geoff, how specifically do you think you use a no-till drill if you had one your horses could pull? I know alot of farmers on the palouse use them to plant winter wheat following lentils. We did that on the farm I used to work on, but we also sprayed for broadleaf weeds using some chemical I can’t remember the name of… Weed pressure there is so different in different parts of the county, and this might have a big impact on the practicality of organic no-till.

PS. If there is anyone else who thinks they would use an animal powered no-till drill, please let me know how you would plan to use it (IF you already owned it and knew it worked)…

[Andy Carson]

Welcome Phil,
Your lost arts collaborative reminds me a little of a visit I made last year to colonial Williamsburg, VA. Yeah, I know it’s not New England, but it was still very interesting to see traditional techniques in practice. Many of the specific practices seem very useful even today. The visit inspired me to make a handcart and I am also adopted a door closing system that was used in the barns and on many gates there. Little things, I know, but I still think it is great when we can learn from the past and adapt to modern day problems. Great to have you with us!

[Andy Carson]

I have used a trail riding bridle with a detachable bit on my mare before. She doesn’t like the bit being fixed on one side and swung across (through) her mouth and feels much more comfortable with a “straight in” kind of motion. It not a big deal to me, so I make sure I put the bit in straight each time and don’t “swing it” across. I just have to detach both clips to do this instead of just one. My wifes horse has been touchy about taking his bit in the past. We tried some apple-favored wipes to get him to take the bit easier (which worked fantastically) and eventually switched over to a bit with a copper center (the center of the french link). As long as the bit is not really cold, he takes it right up without any apple favored wipe futzing. I guess it was the taste he objected to, but there are many ways to “skin that cat”… Some other ideas to try at least, but I would check the teeth too.

[Andy Carson]

Here’s one technique…
http://www.umanitoba.ca/afs/agronomists_conf/poster_pdf/Caroline_Halde_poster.pdf

[Andy Carson]

Thanks Mike,
I had read the plowman’s folly before, but I’ll have to check out the other resources. Just to be clear, I am most interested in thinking about and speculating on what the best practices might be if one was interested in doing no-till on a small scale using animal power and organic practices. If I knew what those techniques were, it would be easier to compare and contrast them with min-till and conventional tillage. The question arose for me because when I was trying to imagine what the best no-till practices might be (IE disc then drill), I ended up with something closer to min-till than no-till. I disced and broadcast seeded cover crops last year and was generally pretty happy, so I do believe in the concept, but there is always room for improvement. Perhaps no-till is very difficult on a small scale without herbicides? Using modern tractor-based practices as a model, it seems likely that pure no-till would be a “non-starter” for an organic farm, but it is also very possible that I am simply not familiar with practices that would make it work… Often times there are creative and effective ways of accomplishing the same goal without simply copying what tractors do. Just trying to think the concept through…

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the thoughts. I am interested in exploring this no/min till topic for small grains and little more, despite the likelihood that it might not be yield any improvements over conventional methods. For me, I would have a hard time not discing before drilling mostly because I would be nervous about weeds without some type of tillage. Perhaps if the no-till crop was planted directly into a cover crop that was rolled, mowed, or will winter kill than weed control wouldn’t be as much of a concern… The Nordell’s no till garlic into oats and peas, which winter kill, leaving the garlic. Kind of a clever trick, I think, and I can do something similar by seeding covers into standing crops (as in seeding clover between corn rows). I know this isn’t a new idea, and isn’t technically “no-till,” but it shares some similarities. Of course, I don’t need to use a no-till drill for this… Perhaps it is the mere existence of these (and related) techniques that made no-till drills a late arrival on the “ag invention scene”, corresponding roughly to heavy herbicide use (I think). I wonder if there are clever techniques that might make no till drills work well on a modern animal powered farm without the heavy herbicide use. Perhaps if one rolled or mowed a cover crop and no tilled directly into the cover residue? Perhaps one could no-till something like wheat into a cover of oats, which would winter kill leaving just the wheat in spring? One could also no till directly after harvest of the previous crop (if that crop smothered weeds), but then your no-till crop has to live through the winter, and that kinda limits your options… I am curious what others think. It seems there is interest in animal powered no-till, were the folks envisioning this envisioning round-up as well?

[Andy Carson]

After all that nice weather a couple weeks ago, it got really cold again here. The lows have been 18 degrees or so and I’ve had the go back to breaking ice in the horse trough… March can’t make up it’s mind around here… There’s snow in the forecast, and after that I’ll have to wait until things thaw and dry out… At least I didn’t have a crop up during this…

[Andy Carson]

Geoff/Tim,
I think I will actually put this on my short list of equipment to make sometime. I don’t think I’ll be able to get started until I am sure my other equipment is working well and doesn’t need tweeked. This might be a while, but I would have use for a very small min-till drill and it sounds like there is interest from others as well… I have seen figures in the range of 300-500 lbs per opener for the openers on no-till drills. I would be more attacted to running a disc through the field first, then following up with a heavier drill, but probably not as heavy as a true “no-till” setup. If I can create field conditions (with the disc) where 200 pounds per disc can plant will be sufficient, than I think I could make a useful min-till drill. It would probably be in the range of 3 feet wide. This might seem kinda crappy compared to other drills, but I think of this more of a “plow substitute” than a “drill substitute” and plowing a 3 foot swath with one horse would truly be monumental! :). Tim, I could use some thoughts (and any draft measurements you have) here when you get around to it. This is not a project I will start until everything seems to be on the right track with spring work, so no rush… I have some concerns about residue management, but don’t think it is as critical for this drill as for a corn planter, so am tempted to not put any residue wheels on this…

[Andy Carson]

I’m not sure if this is very useful information, but just in case anyone is interested, finger pickups designed for corn also meter peas and sunflowers. I am not really surprised at the sunflowers, but I thought I would have to futz with the fingers for the peas. Ran a few cups of seed though the machine, and it meters 12 seeds nearly every rotation. This ability probably depends on seed size to some extent, so perhaps I got a little lucky… A side note, I did end up taking out the “conveyor belt” for the peas (for those of you familiar with this type of machine). The fingers spin pretty fast when metering peas and the belt was creating a lot of drag and making the bike wheel skid a bit. I’ll probably put it back on for the corn and sunflower (where the fingers spin a lot slower), although I don’t really see what it so great about the conveyor belt anyway. If the fingers have incorrectly metered seed, the conveyor is simply going to carry that mistake along…

[Andy Carson]

John, I found this drill in Maine on craigslist. It’s a 10 foot drill and might be more drill than what you are looking for. Too bad you aren’t closer to PA or Ohio. Old horse drawn equipment just litters old barns and sheds around here (especially where the Amish haven’t picked out the “good stuff” already). I have probably had as much luck picking though other people barns and sheds with an open mind as with searching for individual items… That’s a long trip for you though…

http://maine.craigslist.org/grd/2275848266.html

If you don’t mind me asking, what are you planting?

[Andy Carson]

Looks very pretty! The only thing I see is that it looks like your doubletree might catch on one those nuts holding down the flat steel (securing the pole) if one horse moves ahead of the other much. Pretty minor thing… I love sleds!

[Andy Carson]

Here’s the planter in the “transport” position. The front wheels are wonderful. My wife wouldn’t quit teasing me while i posed, so you’ll have to excuse the expression. The wheels are forward and elevated (with respect to the coulter) about 3.5 inches. If I need to run deeper, I might be able to adjust, but I don’t see why I would need to go deeper.

[Andy Carson]

Well that’s pretty cool then. I had worried about tipping and turning, but the proof is in the testing! Seems like a very useful concept…

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