[Andy Carson]

@Baystatetom 28904 wrote:

I like the looks of that wire crane forwarder, but I think in most cases around here anyway the up and down terrain would still mean a tractor had to be on it more then the animals.

Can alone give me a general idea of what kind of slopes we are talking about here? Both the percent grade and the length would be wonderful info to have, if anyone knows… Also, does anyone know what a minimum load might be for the forward to be practical? I might have some creative ideas about these hills, but want to run some numbers to see if any are actually feasable…

And yes, I know there probably greater challanges in terms of manpower and logistics here, but I like to think about the technology aspect.

[Andy Carson]

Simon, are you talking about this??? I really like this design, so simple, yet it seems it would be so effective and cheap to build. Better than a ramp and winch for sure.

[Andy Carson]

Ahhh… Thanks for the explaination, Carl. Perhaps there isn’t as much of a need for new lost cost technology here. As far as the cultural change you allude to, perhaps the fact that you can get this many operators together on one job is a testimate to how much cultural change there has been. Congratulations to you and everyone else who is a part of this cultural change. Perhaps with continued high fuel prices we will start seeing a shift in the economics of machine versus animal powered operations as well. I know fuel prices are a major complaint of my tractor-farmer neighbors, and is often a topic of conversation. With both positive environmental impacts and economics on the animal powered side, perhaps the cultural change will be exponential. I am doubtful fuel prices will change the overall economic equation for very large operations in the near future, and would probably have a greater impact on smaller operations, but who knows? I am excited to see what the future holds.

[Andy Carson]

What about a simple wagon with brakes and a set of ramps to load? Perhaps a small electric winch, battery, small generator could be added to simplify loading and would add minimal expense, and the electrical power could run some other gizmos. Maybe a gas powered winch? One could use the horses to pull the logs up the ramp too, but that would require unhitching and such. The logs could just be dumped off the side to unload, but could still make a nice pile if they were dumped into a frame of some sort. Not as high as on the video though… I’m sure it’s a big step down from a hydraulic loading arm, but it might be cheap enough to sit around a good bit.

[Andy Carson]

I also wondered about alternative forwarding systems, especially because to keep the tractor-forwarder busy it takes 4 choppers and 2 teamsters, for a total of 7 like minded people on the same schedule. For smaller jobs, I wonder if it’s the work-flow (rather than the technology) that it a limitation. For example, if the job required two choppers and one teamster, a forwarder would require a fourth person who would largely sit around. Perhaps the teamster could split time between skidding tasks and forwarding tasks (assuming the technology was easy to “swap”) -but then they likely could not keep up with two choppers. Perhaps a chopper could split time between chopping and forwarding, but then the teamster-skidder would sit around. No matter how the work is divided, the forwarder would sit some of the time and so would need to be cheap enough that this would be affordable. Perhaps if there was a group of two committed choppers, one committed teamster skidding, and one “float” who could chop, skid, or forward (as need be) it would be workable and everyone would be busy. The “float” would probably need to be pretty savy though, and again, the forwarder apparatus would need to be fairly cheap. This is really alot of musing from someone with almost no logging experience, I am curious to hear from the real loggers. Perhaps there is opportunity for a cheap, “low-tech” forwarding system that one could afford to have sit half the time?

[Andy Carson]

That makes sense. I was kinda curious about the feasibility of one of those horse drawn forwarders with a loading arm and a small engine to power the hydraulics. If the forwarder is already the bottleneck, though, it might not make sense. Perhaps two such forwarders could keep up, but that adds horses and teamsters (if you can find them). Also, those horse drawn forwarders might be pretty pricey (I really don’t know about this).

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the video. It seems the forwarder has a couple advangates in this hybrid set-up. One is that is has a loader arm, which seems to simplify loading the logs. The other is that the tractor can haul heavy loads long distances and up hills using tractor power that the horses would perhaps have a hard time achieving. Perhaps the tractor can move faster too (I guess the road quality would limit you more than anything)… I wonder if you could comment on the relative contributions of these different factors (loading vs capacity vs speed). I do really appreciate hybrid systems, I am just curious….

[Andy Carson]

Thanks Bob. I think I was overcomplicating it. One advantage of using an airtight container is that I can fumigate with dry ice.

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the video. I really appreciate the gentle yet firm handling and it seems the oxen appreciate it too. It’s nice to get back to work when the weather cools off. Do you burn the wood yourself? It seems like you could amass a pretty big pile…

[Andy Carson]

Although I think this is interesting, I think a couple big hurdles must be overcome for honey to be used as a practical preverserative for milk. One, the concentration of honey used for the turbidity assays and long term bacterial counts was 50 mg/ml. That comes 50 grams per liter, about 189 grams per gallon, or about 0.42 lbs of honey per gallon of milk. This is alot of honey, a 50 cow dairy would have to use more than 20 TONS of honey a year to apply it at this rate… My other concern is that the inhibitory effect is not even across bacterial species. It is likely that many of the “natural” bacteria (natural is a loaded word here because milk in the udder is largely sterile), such as lactobacilus, “spoil” milk in a predictable and largely harmless way that is easy to taste and smell. Selective inhibition leaves “room” for pathogenic bacteria (esp catalase positive pathogens) to expand and possible cause disease. The same sort of pattern applies to pasturized milk which often picks up this “sewer” smell that I associate with pseudomonas rather than the moer comforting “buttermilk” smell that I can smell from older raw milk. I am still pretty convinced that the best “preservative” for milk is clean technique, fast refrigeration, and minimal storage.

[Andy Carson]

He is a German Shepherd/Lab cross. He acts like a shepherd, but looks like lab so neighbors/visitors aren’t afraid of him. My training method was to expose him to the chickens alot from when he was a very young puppy, yell at him if he chased them, and generally encourage him to be territorial. With a Shepherd, this does take alot of encouragement, more like I didn’t yell at him if he barked at things. I never trained him to go after “critters,” but he does that on his own and he’s intimidating enough that few predators would wait and see if he will actually bite. He actually never chased chickens in the first place, I think b/c of the very early exposure starting when he was 7 weeks. It was alot of help that I already had two pugs that are alot not inclined to chase the chickens either. He kinda followed suit and used them as role models. The Shepherd in him makes him do patrols of the place every half hour or so. I didn’t really “train” him to do this in a formal way, I just praised him alot for doing the patrols. I do make him come along with he when I do chores and I think this taught him the areas that need covered (he follows the same track when he does patrols). The two pugs and him work as a pretty efficient team for guarding, because the pugs are a little more “alert” (like alot of small dogs) and thier yapping brings whatever “it” is to the attention of the shepherd mix, who goes and “checks it out.” Often times, it’s not important, but little escapes the attention of all three of them. The chickens are put up in thier coop at night, too, which is probably also important as well.

He is not a livestock guardian dog in the sense that he feels the need to protect his livestock specifically. He is more of a guard dog that feels a need to protect his territory. I felt that this type of protection was easier to deal with and as the chickens don’t range far, I think it is just fine.

[Andy Carson]

I think I’ll use geese to graze between the trees for the first few years and perhaps beyond. There are several reasons. 1) I have experience with poultry, and none with sheep. 2) Geese can also live mostly on grass, and are unlikely to damage trees. 3) I have taken time this year to train a new dog to guard poultry and have lost no chickens even though they have been free ranging (this is a HUGE factor). 4) The reproduction rates of geese is such that I can overwinter just a few geese and still have plenty in the spring then the grass comes in. 5) They are comparatively cheap. 6) The laws pertaining to the slaughter and sale of poultry are more attractive to a small producer than those pertaining to larger animals.

Really, it was the reproduction rate and having a trustworthly and attentive dog that made the biggest difference in comparing animals for this job.

It seems like I am ending up with a small ecosystem… 🙂

[Andy Carson]

Thanks Tim,
The juglone from the walnuts was an issue I had put some thought into as well, especially when I was thinking of mixing trees. In the end, I decided on keeping everything seperate and rotationally graze/forage. The cherries go on the “border” of the walnuts, which are on the far end of the field next to a somewhat wild fencerow. Actually, I was hoping the juglone would be useful in keeping some of this planting in the area at bay until until the walnuts can take over. The grass mix I am using does have bluegrass in it, which is resistant to juglone, so hopefuly will be able to subsist on the floor after the trees reach a reasonable size. For me personally, black walnut doesn’t do anything to me other than stain my hands (and stain them very badly). This isn’t an area where horses will graze either.

Overal, I think this toxicity is definately an issue that is important, and is probably the biggest downside to the black walnut. In the end though, the positive aspects (productivity, hardiness, future timber value, and ability to produce a nutritious nut that not all wildlife can readily eat) convinced me of it’s value in a diversified and roatationally grazed setup.

It has been very interesting, by the way, to learn about trees for this project. Trees seem to come with more “implementation complexities” than field crops do. Perhaps this is a result of thier often more “wild” background. Perhaps this is due to thier more permanant nature. Either way, with trees there seem to be less obvious choices from what species would be best for any particular application and many (if not most) have positive and negative aspects that one much make comprimises with in selection. Yes, field crops have these too, but the trees seem have exagerated positive and negative aspects. The juglone from black walnut is probably a perfect example of this, but is not the only example. Apples produce lots of fruit (although it in low in protein), but they attract wildlife, are prone to many diseases, and require more care than many trees. Cherry aren’t nearly as productive (calories per acre wise) as many fruit trees, the fruit attracts birds, and the trees are really quite large and slower to produce than might be ideal. The species of chestnut I am using is non-native (chestnut blight keeps me from using a native tree) and makes me worry there might be some disease or unforseen issue from using a non-native tree. The honeylocust’s thorns might be nice in keeping the hogs off the trees in higher traffic areas, but I worry the damn things will puncture the tires on my forecart or trailer, the pods aren’t really that competative with fruit and nuts (calories per acre) and the wood is of little value. Mulberries can have an extended fruiting season, but I don’t trust the hogs to leave the trees alone if they are in with the trees for entire season so it can’t really be utilized. Also, native mulberries haven’t been selected for fruit as strongly as more traditional fruit trees, and the non-native trees might bring inintended consequences. These are some of the issues I have struggled with in planning. I don’t mean this as a “bitch,” just an illustration of the complexity of the task. It is complex, but also fun. Now we’ll have to see if it actually works.

[Andy Carson]

You make a good point about the sheep, especially when I’m establishing the grove/orchard. I will have to do some reading and thinking about this as my experience with sheep is almost zero. At first pass, they seem to make sense if I can move the meat. With pork, I am a pretty confident I can find people who want it. I really don’t know about selling lamb…

[Andy Carson]

I will be planting grass as an understory plant. I expect the pigs will obtain some nutrition from that as well as the dropped fruit. It will take a while to get up to speed, and there is alot that still isn’t know yet, but back of the hand calculations seem to indicate that these trees could provide enough nutrients to fatten about 10-20 hogs a year. Maybe this isn’t extremely impressive, but I think alot of it is scale-able, and I really believe it is sustainable too. If I add in the whey I can get for free and the field crops I can raise, and who knows how many pigs I can raise? Maybe twice that number, maybe more??? It’s pretty speculative right now. I am spacing the trees at near adult spacing and am trying to protect them well. I keep playing with the idea of planting something in the alleyways when the trees are young, but grass is useful anyway. I will probably plant a few rows of corn down one or two alleyways next year b/c I am curious.

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