[Andy Carson]

$25 does sound strange, but work horses are cheap around here and super cheap at this time of year. There is a good mix of the tall hitchy types and shorter stout types, and the shorter stouter types usually go cheaper (sometimes much cheaper). Both of my horses were cheap Amish “cast-offs” for one reason or another. My first was cheap because she was old (at 12) and “squatty” (at 16.1), and my second because she was “short” (at 16.3 hands) and “hot” (but plenty workable). I have enjoyed both and got alot of work out of them. There are good horses to be had for sure, and I am constantly shocked by horse prices in other parts of the country. I bet someone could make a buisness buying horses from Amish county in Ohio and selling them elsewhere.

[Andy Carson]

Thanks Billy,
I am not sure if he is going to be a great puller or not. He pulls because I tell him “good boy” when he does it, not out of the shear joy of pulling. Is this what you are talking about? That said, he is usually pretty tentative when he is starting any new task though (he likes to know what is expected of him) so it’s too early to judge yet. He’s motivated almost exclusively by praise (it’s a huge reward for him) so it makes it super easy to teach him almost anything. I doubt he would be a standout sled dog in comparison to dogs bred and trained exclusively for this, but I think of this as just one of many tasks he can do.

[Andy Carson]

I live about two hours east (and a little north) of Mount Hope, and would be happy to give horse(s) and driver(s) a break on their way back to the northeast. I have spare bedrooms, and a spare paddock too (although without shelter). It’s a long drive from Ohio to New England, and a stop-over might make this more do-able… PM me if interested.

[Andy Carson]

After some more reading, I think that frying the meat to dryness and vacuum packing it would be just as cheap/easy and easier to move around (as it’s a dry product). This way, I get “cracklin’s” similar to dry rendering.

[Andy Carson]

I am much more optimist about getting the thing to move, especially if the weight is really in the range of 10-15 tons. Divide the weight by four teams (8 animals), and you have the equivalent of 1.25-1.9 tons per animal. That’s roughly twice the animals weight, which on a wheeled vehicle should be easily doable. I agree that there is some loss in efficiency with a big group, and some mechanical advantage would be a good idea especially on hills. Brakes are definately critical too. 1.2 miles isn’t really that far either, even at a very slow 2.5 MPH pace, that is only a half hour of pulling. Not that I think it would only take a half hour, but the point is that there is pletty of time for breaks. Probably a good thing too, as this is going to attract attention from the public. In my experience, the public often doesn’t understand that horses sweat when they work and if some people see your horse sweat, then you have to explain to them why/how you are not being “cruel.”

I hear what you are saying about horsepower, Matt, but this number doesn’t capture what animals can do over the short term, especially with breaks. Pulling horses, for example, exert over ten times this horizontal force figure for short distances. Logging with horses would be severly limited if no team could pull logs weighing more than 800 lbs (400*50% friction). The point being that there is precident set for animals to ruitinely and dramatically exceed there somewhat misleading horsepower figures for minutes at a time. I think the horsepower term and concept is best applied to machines, as there is so much that is not captured by this figure with animal power. I get a much better estimate of what an animal can do by looking at what other animals can do and multiplying and/or dividing by the number of animals, the weight of the object, or the width of an implement.

[Andy Carson]

I have used rope lines to walk behind my harrow, which is rather long. They worked well for me. Something about the length, the lightness of the rope I chose, or the stretchiness of the rope made for a less responsive and slower “feel” than regular lines, but it was easy to get used to. I, for one, don’t think this is a “skunk farm” thing. I have to admit, though, that I’ve never been to a skunk farm so I can’t say for sure… 🙂

[Andy Carson]

Thanks all for the thoughts. I did get ahold of Howie and am looking forward to a visit. I hope to know alot more after the visit and will be sure to share.

[Andy Carson]

Thanks all for the invites and suggestions. I feel very lucky to have access to such a great community. I will PM with plans, I don’t want to put anyone on the spot in a public forum.

[Andy Carson]

@Baystatetom 29362 wrote:

If you are used to draft horses you can transition into oxen pretty easily I bet.

I am hoping this is somewhat true, but I certainly have alot to learn. I would love to find someone local who could do a show and tell and/or a lesson of some sort. Not everyone’s favorite thing to do, I know, but I could work off my lesson or simply pay for it. It’s worth alot to be to have a good start. Please if there is anyone local that is interested, pm me.

[Andy Carson]

So you don’t limit their grazing at all? I have to limit my horses grazing to half a day or they get too fat. I had just assumed that the oxen would need limited even more. Maybe not. Even if they had to be out only the day it’s not that hard. It sound like this isnt so much of an issue that I need to fret about it.

Is limiting feed to mature oxen a challange for anyone out there?

[Andy Carson]

Thanks Tevis,
It seems I was making this more complicated than it needed to be. I will have to do a little more thinking about a rotating sacrifice area concept as it’s not neccessary that this be part of my management ruitine. You mention that some oxen breeds put on weight easier than others. The breeds I am most interested in right now are Devons and Ayrshires as I think these are likely to be faster walkers. Is it easier to keep these more active types from getting fat too? These breeds might not be the best choice for a beginner, but I tend to like more forward animals…

[Andy Carson]

I think I would be most interested in getting an older team. They wouldn’t have to be full grown, but I would hope I could find a couple that are able to do substantial work once I am up to speed. My problem is I need stuff done yesterday, not in a couple years from now… There seems to be good teams for sale when I look around and I bet some people would be happy to have thier team go to a working home rather than the butcher.

[Andy Carson]

Getting back to the origional topic of this thread… I too have been thinking about getting into oxen. Most accurately, I have been weighing the pros and cons of getting another horse to make a team versus selling my horse (after a transition time) and getting a team of oxen. It’s kinda of “bird in the hand” vs “two in the bush” situation, but as keep having the need to more power (primarily for tillage), I get more attacted to having a team of oxen…

One of major attractive features of oxen is that in my situation I think I can feed a team of oxen about the same (maybe even less???) than what I spend to feed my horse. Here’s why I think this. Please correct me if I’m wrong about these thoughts, as I do not have alot of oxen experience.

1. I have more than enough pasture to feed two horses in the spring, summer, and fall. I think that if the horses can’t eat all the pasture, than a pair of oxen would have plenty in thier place. I also think that the oxen will utililize graze the pasture more uniformly and not leave cronically ungrazed patches like the horses tend to do.

2. I think that oxen would be easier to temporarily fence in the fields, allowing them to graze crop residue and cover crops. The ease of secure fencing opens up more potential for more intensive rotational grazing in smaller paddocks, and I could perhaps stockpile some grass for the winter.

3. I have less worry about turning cattle out to on marginal forage and scavanged crop residue. Stockpiled grass, old corn stalks, overwintered turnips, cereal cover crops, etc, are things I think oxen would appreciate (correct me if I’m wrong).

4. Oxen can eat cheaper, poorer quality hay, and don’t need grain at all (unless I work them harder than I think I will).

From a working perspective, I used to really appreciate the ability of my horse to trot and even canter from time to time, but this was largely for my own entertainment, and I am not sure this is really a useful working trait. I can also give up entertaining (fast) forecart rides for guests :). I walk all the time when I work my horse, so walking with oxen should be about the same. What I can’t give up, though, is having a fast walk. I spent some time around some really big oxen at Tunbridge last year, and thought that they would be nice to work with, BUT some of them walked at a speed that would drive me absolutely bat-sh*t crazy. I would need a faster walking team for sure. I think that some oxen walk fairly fast (I am speculating here), and I don’t need a really big team. Maybe the smaller team walk faster in general??? I am curious to hear what others think. Maybe I am overestimating the power and ulitity of the ruminant stomach. On the other hand, perhaps thier digestive system is SO efficient that mature oxen require alot of management just to make sure they don’t get too much food? Perhaps there are other factors to take into account?

[Andy Carson]

hi George,
Some people call what I call a slip scoop a tumblebug, some people are refering to a different tool altogether… If you are refering to what I call a slip scoop (see pics), I have used one a quite a bit. It’s a tricky tool to use, but once you and your horse get the hang of it, it works pretty well. The “trick” to it is that you have to use the handles to gently guide the nose into whatever you are scooping (manure in my case) at just the right angle. If you are too aggressive with the angle, the nose digs into the ground, it will flip the rig (and maybe you) over. If the angle is too shallow, the scoop slides over the top of the manure without loading completely. For me, I was most successful going with a pretty shallow angle, which loads about 1/2 to 2/3 of the scoop, and then I filled the rest of it up by hand with a fork. You have to resist the urge to force the handles and the scoop into a specific position, and let the “feel” of the ground/manure inform how you angle the handles. If it feels “easy” you can go deeper (within reason), if it feels hard, you have to go with a shallower angle (and you will have to do this very fast). The most essential thing is that your horse and you learn to stop immediately when the nose catches hard. This took a little training for my horse, because she is usually the type that likes to go when the going gets tough. The other thing is to hold onto the handles in a way that if the hose dives (and the scoop flips), you don’t get “launched” into space and you don’t loose your reins. After you get the hang of it you can purposely lift the scoop handles and the let thing flip to unload, but make sure you have good control of you horse when you try this as it makes a loud “flopping” sound that you horse might not be used to. Overall, it’s a good tool when you have room to get aroundthe pile you are trying the move. I moved manure but driving my horse through the pile and slip scooping behind. I have tried backing the horse and scoop into less accessable corners with manure, and this works OK, but a shovel and a wheelbarrow are more time efficient in tight spots. I hope this helps, good luck!

PS. I wouldn’t rely on this tool to do much digging in harder soil, it is best used as a mover of material that is pretty soft already.

[Andy Carson]

Congrats to the new board members! I wish I could have made it this year, but it just didn’t seem to work out. It looks like a great event. Thanks for the photos.

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