[Andy Carson]

Very interesting picture. If you follow the line from the front side straps though the d-ring onto the rear tugs up until they attach to what I presume to be a singletree, you will notice the line is almost perfectly straight. Most D-ring harnesses that I have seen in use of in photos have a shallow angle (maybe 5-15%) between the front side strap and the rear tug, which is assumed because of the weight of the pole or front of the cart. Maybe the tongue on this wagon is really light, but I would still think it would require a whole lot of tension to keep the line this straight. Perhaps this is just a difference is harnessing techique? Compared to more “modern” adjustments, it looks like the back straps are very long in the photo above, and the belly band is very loose. Perhaps the back band is so loose that part of the weight of the tongue is carried by the collar and britchen? This could explain why there appears to be tension on the britchen… I don’t know if this is intentional, but maybe having the harness set up this way would allow the horses to be more responsive to braking the wagon without allowing the wagon to gain momentum before the horse brakes. I would guess this would be more important in places where roads were good enough to allow horses to haul truly immense weights (as in the photo). Perhaps the D-ring was an early adaptation for hauling very heavy wagon loads? Maybe later, with a few adjustments, people found out it could be used for all sorts of other heavy draft applications? Just speculation…

[Andy Carson]

Here’s an interesting link to a scholarly arcticle discussing body types for Ba’nei horses, a type of Japanese draft horse race where they pull sleds. http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jes/12/1/12_1/_article/-char/en

Interesting notes:
The horses that compete in these competitions average 17 hands (with 70+% ranging from 16.2 to 17.2 hands) and weigh an average of 2215 lbs (with ~70% ranging from 2105 to 2325 lbs). Most were male and the vast majority were crossbred Percheron, Belgian and Breton.

Within this population, the primary determinant of performance was body weight, with heavier horses winning more races.

Within this population, the influence of height was not a significant determinant of performance. Maybe height doesn’t matter as much as I would have thought, or maybe these horses are already about as short and thick as is practical (17 hands, 2200 lbs is pretty thick).

Other body measurements (other than weight) were not statistically significant with respect to performance and the emphasis was on a “balanced” body shape. IE, the heaviest horse with a “balanced” conformation was most likely to win the race.

[Andy Carson]

The description of the plow harness with the back band starts at 8:55, in case anyone has ADD. I have never seen a back band used before, but would think it would keep the line of draft true in many applications.

[Andy Carson]

My first feeling is that temperment and “workability” are probably more important than fine tuning how tall your horse is, BUT, it is still fun to think about. In my mind, the ability to move something is based both on force and leverage. Unless your horse is fat, the force is primarily related to muscle mass, which is pretty much proportial to weight. I am not concidering (at least not right now) the fact that if you have two horses of equal weight and different heights, the shorter horse likely has more muscle mass, because the frame weighs less (all other things being equal). From the standpoint of weight, the taller horse has the advantage because it’s larger frame can carry more weight (again all else being equal). Leverage is substantially improved in the shorter horse with shorter limbs, however. Which is more important? Well, it’s not hard to have two drafts that differ in weight by 50%, such as a 1500 lb and a 2250 lb horse. It is also possible to have horses that vary in height by 50%, such as 12 hands and 18 hands, but only one of these heights is in the range that most would call a draft horse. So, within the range of “normal” draft horses, weight is likely the primary factor determing pulling ability. That doesn’t mean that height isn’t important though, because I would predict the shorter horse of two with equal weight to be stronger both because of more muscle mass and increased leverage. Still, weight is likely the major determinant, but does that mean I want the heaviest horse avaliable, certainly not! This might be my own personal opinion, but I think that really heavy horses have inherent soundness and longevity problems. I think this is due to the fact that as height increases, weight increases as a cube of the height (assuming equal build). Think of a cube, if you double the height, the volume increases by 8 fold. The stength of the supporting structures, however, only grow as a square of the height. Think again of a cube, representing a bone, it’s weight increases by 8 fold, but it’s cross sectional area (which determines it’s strength) only increases by 4 fold when height is doubled. So, if build is equal, strength is cut in half with a doubling of height. I think everyone would have to decide on thier own where weight becomes an “issue,” but for me I wouldn’t want a horse over 1900-2000 lbs. Now, if you don’t want a horse over that weight, than the “best” horse would likely be the shorter horse with the biggest bones that close to, but not over 1900-2000 lbs. I could easily see that horse being 16.3 or thereabouts, but I don’t see anything magical about that exact height. I have heard something about the draft angles, too, but it’s hard for me to think that with all the possible jobs and all the possible hitching configurations, there is just one height that is the best…

[Andy Carson]

@Does’ Leap 31514 wrote:

Interesting discussion and comments……..Andy, Just curious, at what theoretical point are you measuring the deflection? Mitch, what’s the final verdict on your moccasin scoot runners?

George

I was calculating deflection at the D ring itself, and modelled it as a rope from point A (the hames) to point B (the singletree) with a 240 lb pulling force and an additional force X applied at the D-ring to cause a deflection of between 0 and 6 inches.

[Andy Carson]

Mitch, I would guess a logger or farmer, but what the heck do I know??? I am really only guessing that because I would guess engineers were pretty rare 10 generations back. Also, I think that New England would be a place where you might think it could get invented. It would likely need to be new world so the inventor would try a new design during ten generations ago (forgive me European friends -you all actually seem more creative now than many Americans). I would have also guessed that it would come from a place that was very hilly, as the advantage of keeping the line of draft true would be most advantageous there. I would have also guessed it would from a place where farms were smaller, requiring a harness that be used for many tasks, where a little more time fitting a harness wouldn’t get obnoxius. I am not saying that I think it would take alot longer to put on a D-ring, but I bet it takes a bit longer to get them adjusted to each individual horse initially. If you were pulling a combine harvester out west with 40 horses, you probably wouldn’t want this harness… Also, I would guess a regional invention would probably get preserved in a place that is not absorbing thousands of immigrant settlers, who would likely opt for the mass produced option. I think with all those qualifications, you have to end up somewhere New England or Appalachia, and I think the people in the more southern or western parts if this range probably had other things to worry about than horse harnesses ten generations back. It makes you wonder how many other regional adaptations have been lost throughout the years… I am glad we are writing this stuff down… Perhaps we should make a special category for “old and regional” tools and techniques we stumble upon (even if the poster doesn’t think they are useful) because they may just be better than someone first suspects. Now I have a tough question is for you, Mitch: Would you rather have something made by a logger farmer or an engineer?

[Andy Carson]

Another component might be to pen the sheep at night. I would consider nothing else for my birds.

[Andy Carson]

Gordon, the first time I saw a d-ring harness I was “weirded-out” by your same point, that the line from the hames to the d-ring and the line from the d-ring to the singletree are not always parallel. The deflection either above or below the imaginary line from the hames to the singletree has to be counteracted by the weight of the pole, downward pressure on saddle, or possibly upward pressure on the girth. If deflection exists, increased draft will increase the force required to maintain the deflection. These observations seemed at least to me initially, to be important factors which may limit the utility or efficiency of the d-ring system. Further analysis (ask me if interested, but this is going to get detailed and “mathy”) reveals that the force required to maintain a “normal” amount of deflection is pretty small. Very large deflections can require considerable force to maintain (a six inch deflection with a normal working load could require over 100 lbs of force to maintain). I don’t think this is an issue, though, because these large deflections are unusual and the weight of the pole counteracts some of this weight if the force required is in the more typical downward direction. An interesting factor that came up in this analysis is that there is a slight draft disadvantage to a set up with a deflection. The animal is essentially pulling against itself. This is a very very tiny amount of wasted force though, amounting to a maximum of 3% more force than is required in a straight pull if the deflection is 6 inches off the theorectional “perfect” straight line through the d-ring. Of course, this a false comparison because attempting this types of pulls without a d-ring the pull would force the collar up or down so dramatically the horse probably wouldn’t be comfortably anyway. Every time I think about the system I am impressed with the design.

[Andy Carson]

Was the other chicken killed in the same way, or did you find the body? Do you have a dog that guards the chickens? I am sure it’s made a big difference for me. Searching in the fresh snow for predator tracks taught me how comprehesively a dog who interested in patroling can scan a place. I think every square yard gets sniffed once a day, and perimeters get checked several times.

[Andy Carson]

Sorry about your hens, Phil. Did you lose them all at the same time? Your chicken carcass looks alot like mine did, but I only lost one chicken. We have had a few days of snow here which gives me a great opportunity to check for tracks. Nothing but dogs and cats though. I think it was a good idea to set a trap, although I personally didn’t catch anything but cats. By the way, you’re telling us that it’s January and there’s no snow and it’s almost 50 degrees in Colorado? I guess I always think of mountains and skiing and forget it’s almost New Mexico.

[Andy Carson]

Personally, i wouldn’t touch this situation with a ten foot pole. I would consider shooting a dog if the situation waranted it, but i would strongly caution against trying anything “creative.” There are lots of ways to kill something on paper, but what if the method turns out to be not as humane as intended, or (perish the thought) does not completely kill the dog??? Alot of times new or unfamiliar techniques don’t work the first time… Not only does the animal suffer needlessly, but now your neighbor is likely your new enemy. People aren’t always rational with their pets. My two cents is to tell them to find a vet.

[Andy Carson]

i value everyone’s opinion about this and I truly have no idea what killed my chicken either. I have another 50, though, so unless it was the start of a pattern, I can absorb the loss. I suppose I brought the topic up because with the clues I had, I wasn’t sure what killed the bird. After some discussion, and some tests and observation on my part, it still sounds like a mystery. I am not disappointed, however, because having to re think and reexamine my chicken security cannot possibly be a waste of time. Also, whether this thing was a weasel or mink or not, making myself feel confident that the coop is secure against such small and strong predators almost certainly secures it against a host of others. I have actually been thinking or some sort of integrated trap that could be fit into chicken doors so as to trap weasels, mink, rats etc that would be more likely to go under a board along a threshold, rather than jump over (as a chicken would). I’ll share some photos if i get around to it. It seems like a worthwhile invention.

[Andy Carson]

At this point, I think this is a mystery that I am not likely to solve. The lack of a repeat attack, coupled with the lack of my ability to catch anything (well, anything but a barn cat) in live traps for about a week now is a good sign in my mind. Perhaps my initial loss represents a visit from a very wide ranging predator. Maybe a migrating bird, or a mink on the outskirts of it’s range. It might be possible that the digging I saw when I first placed the trap was my dog digging under the trap. He not have reached his muzzle underneath the trap, but the hole underneath could have allowed the liver to fall out the bottom of the trap, and he could have pushed the trap (and cinder block) over a few inches to reach the liver that dropped through. As I twrite this, perhaps this is the most likely explanation. It is hard to imagine that a wild animal big enough to shift a cinder block could have messed around with the trap long enough to get the bait out without getting caught without leaving a track… If it was my dog digging, than I have had no interest in my live traps (other than cats) baited with either chicken livers, whole eggs, cracked eggs, or sardines. I certainly haven’t seen anything tracks that couldn’t be explained by my own dogs and cats. I think I’ll leave my traps up, but otherwise I think I’m coming down off of “high alert.”

[Andy Carson]

The traps have been empty the last couple nights and the bait uneaten. Last night, I baited the biggest trap with a chicken liver, an egg, and a sardine. Still nothing ate it. Making me feel a little better about my potential predator… I also tried a bigger trap, on the chance that it is a fox. Still no interest… I haven’t lost an chickens either, though, so shouldn’t complain…

[Andy Carson]

I actually set two havahart traps of different sizes, both baited with chicken livers. I put the smaller (7x7x24 inches, recommended for “squirrels, rabbits, skunks and mink”) of the two traps I set up next to the coop, but the liver in it was untouched. My logic was that smaller animals were more likely to be closer to the coop, even though I close it up tight religiously every night. The other larger trap (10x12x32 inches, recommended for “raccoons, cats, groundhogs, and opossums) I set up close to the area of the dead chicken, in a bit of cover where I could image a predator watching teh open area. The trap did seem flimsy for a bigger animal (as Scott points out) so I put a cinder block on top of the trap. Within a couple hours of nightfall, the liver was gone from the trap, with a hole dug underneath the rear of the trap. The hole was maybe 4-5 inches wide on the edge tapering to about 2 inches beneath the spot when the liver was placed, with a uniform 2-3 inch depth. The ground there was frozen on the surface and embedded with several 2-3 inch rocks that might have impeded a small animal. The dirt and rocks that were dug were “sprayed” out a foot or two behind the digging animal in a triangular pattern like a dog would do. The trap was shifted a bit, but no more than a few inches (probably b/c of the cinder block on top of it). I rebaited the trap and put cinder blocks on the sides on the trap to block future digging attempts. With this modification, the animal lost interest and left the liver there all night. Perhaps I have a fox and the trap is too small. Hard to determine from the tracks because I have two small dogs that would leave tracks similar in size to a fox. My first thought was that the hole was big enough for a small hand to reach in, which made me think raccoon. On second thought, a foxes head would probably fit in the hole and licking nipping and pulling would likely let the liver fall through the holes in the trap. Jeesh, are there any predators we haven’t discussed yet???

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