[Andy Carson]

Tim,
I appreciate your comments and I do not truly know if we have a different philosophy or not. We are probably looking at different sides of the same coin. I do not think that working with draft animals ought not be a race in the sense that it should not involve rushing from here to there in a hurried, unthoughtful, and stressful manor. These are bad. Nor do I think it is ought to be a competition with my neighbors or piers on who got thier work done faster or who has the strongest animals. I do, however, have defined goals I want to accomplish and seasons and weed pressure that dictate times that these tasks must be accomplished by. So, by that measure, I am in a race, but a slow one dictated by the land itself. I think we are both believers in physical animal conditioning, but I like conditioning to be harder than the work I actually ask. That way, I never have any doubts that they are up to the job, and this allows me to divide my attention to other things like watching implements, keeping a straight line, etc. Because I like to condition hard, I have to keep a close eye on the animals to make sure I pull them back before they fail, which I think is absolutely critical. I especially like long slow work because any signs of exhaustion or failure come on more slowly and you have ample time to catch them. I look for these physical signs of being tired very closely when conditioning, and like to monitor breathing rate and other signs of effort. Another advantage of long slow work is that if the animals are on the brink of failure, once you give them a break to catch thier breath they pull the load home (IE, you don’t have to leave a sled or weights out in a field). I also appreciate your tips, Tim, about the depth of tillage. I have really stretched the min till concept with my single horse last year and learned alot in the process that can be aplpied this year too. I have modular springtooth sections, and can certainly pull fewer if needed. I can’t, obviously, pull less than one however. Disking is my primary concern as my new disc is hard work for my single horse. I can probably find a way around using it if I have to, or remove some weight, but was really hoping they would be in shape for it. I feel like the extra conditioning and extra attention, if done carefully and thoughtfully as I have done for my horse before, can only be helpful reguardless of the short term outcome. Is this actually different from your approach? Is this approach soemhow “horse-centric”?

[Andy Carson]

Thanks Howie,
I did end up giving them grain when I worked them yesterday and it went alot better. I suppose since everyone seems to do this, I should not look at it as a bribe so much. I suspect this “not giving them a treat until the work is over” thing comes from horse experience, or at least my horse experience. No matter, this seems standard and I have no reason to reason to reinvent the wheel here. As far as thier power output, it’s still quiet poor compared to what I was expecting. Any hill especially kills them when going up with the sled. I got the thinking this morning that thier power output (althought still not useful to me yet) might not be at bad as it first appears. They do, after all, have to lug around thier substantial bulk. As they can already move themselves around, any small percent improvements in pulling ability are going to go directly into increased sled weight. As I suspect the bulk of thier power output now goes into moving themselves around, small percent improvments in total power output might yield relatively large increases in weight pulling. In other words, with consistant work, they might get in shape faster than I initially thought. They do seem to be honest about thier work and even though I was suprized at how little they could pull right out of the gate, they do seem to try hard and work until they are legitimately tired.

Any thoughts out there or how long it usually takes to get a younger team that hasn’t pulled heavy before into good enough shape for field work? I am sure this depends on so many things, but are we talking about weeks, months, years? I was hoping that I could make substantial progress in a couple months of good hard work…

[Andy Carson]

Ah ha! I read an interesting article about respiration rates in oxen at rest, walking, and when pulling a load (the reference is below). In bos taurus types (like mine and most others on this site) resting respiration rate is about 18 breaths per minute. Simply walking with no load doubles the respiration rate to 38 breaths per minute, so an elevated breathing rate about rest means little in cattle. When pulling the respiration rate goes up again to anywhere from 40-80 breathes per minute. This is fast breathing even for humans and no where near what my boys were doing when they were acting tired. So, the good news is that some of thier low pulling ability is likely mental. I like this news a lot because that giving an animal confidence can (in theory) be much faster than increasing thier muscle mass 4 fold.

Heart rate and respiratory adjustments during work of increasing intensity in Hinterwaelder and zebu oxen. Animal Science (1997), 64 : pp 233-238

[Andy Carson]

No Tim, I haven’t given them cups of grain at the hitching post, but I do give them hay. I will probably give them grain in the future. They response so well to bribery, even though I truly hate the concept of having to bribe an animal to perform a basic skill (leading, standing, not running away) that it already knows. I would hate to have an animal that asks “what’s in it for me?” every step of the way, which is what I think excessive bribery could lead to (I know I am painting with broad strokes here -but it’s my general feeling). I have to say that as naughty as they (well, mostly costello) can be out of the yoke, when in the yoke they shape up considerably as far as thier behavior goes. Of course, to be really “naughty,” one would have to pull the other one around in the yoke, and I’m sure this is a major factor in inhibiting some bad behavior.

[Andy Carson]

Yes, Geoff, they are mostly shorthorn. Actually 3/4 Shorthorn 1/4 Jersey. I like the concept of a crossbred working animal, and this seemed like a cross I would like. I thought maybe the Jersey would speed up the shorthorn a little. I don’t have enough ox experience to know if this is true of this pair, but it made sense to me on paper. It was kinda a find of opportunity, though. I think there are alot of breeds that would do what I wanted and I am not really picky about color, horn shape, etc. I didn’t name them, though. I had to look up which guy is Costello and which one Abbott was from the famous comedy duo. After I looked them up, I think they were well named. 🙂

[Andy Carson]

@Tim Harrigan 32769 wrote:

Andy, at this age a low quality hay is fine for them. I don’t mean crappy hay, but a mature grass hay. For planning and feeding purposes you can figure about 50 lb/day each and adjust from there as you see fit. That is 2.5% of body weight and allows for some waste. They can probably satisfy their nutritional maintenance requirements with 25% less of your hay which is probably a high quality hay. They really do not need any grain at this age, but a small amount, 1-2 lbs/day will not hurt and they will think they are getting something.

Cattle are basically professional eaters so when they are on pasture you will want to restrict access to new pasture, and if you feed round bales free choice it is better to have just low-quality grass hay. High-quality hay is more digestible so it moves more quickly through them. They will tend to feel hungrier and get fatter at the same time. The rumen is pretty efficient at converting even low quality hay to energy.

Anyway, it sounds like those steers are doing a good job training you. They are teaching you some bad habits though. Feed me now! Feed me more! Like a fat boy loves cake, that’s pretty close.

Thanks Tim,
Thats pretty close to what I have ended up feeding. About a bale and a half a day. Fascinating that that they would feel hungrier and be getting fat at the same time. I was sure that giving them the same amount of a higher quality hay would add body weight/condition, but had not expected that they would be hungrier for it. I think this is exactly what is happening. I think you are right that it is going through them faster too. I can tell in thier manure. When they were on thier old hay, thier manure was hard and had a wrinkly surface that reminded me of a lava flow. My chickens have a hard time stratching around in it and I was worried I was going to have to harrow them to break them up. On the new hay, the manure is much more liquid. Not diarrhea by any means, but more like a classical “cowpie” shape that I am used to seeing with the beef cattle I have been around more. I have a lead on a yoke that I might be able to get my hands on this weekend. Once I get a yoke in my hands, I will start conditioning them and probably be less concerned about them getting too fat.

[Andy Carson]

Thanks Howie,
Obviously waddling is unacceptable :). So that means that I either feed them the horse hay I have, limit thier intake, and listen to them moo for more (as I have been). Or, I get some crappier hay to keep thier bellies fuller (but probably still not completely full) without getting too fat. You know, even when I was feeding more of the older hay that came with them (I brought maybe 1/3 of a round bale to transition them), they still always ate whatever I put out and would always eat more if it I put it in. The phrase “love it like a fat boy loves cake” comes to mind… I am quickly learning that these boys are always going to eat more if I give it to them. I think that means I have to watch thier body condition primarily and ignore any cries for more food. I admit, I was not ignoring cries for more food in the last week or two, which perhaps led to this mooing problem I am attempting to nip in the bud. Does this sound right?

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the replys. I think some of the difference is a somewhat different feeding technique. I feed out of a manger and expect them to eat the hay in the manger and not pull the it out and trample it. This means when the hay is out of the manger, it’s all gone, and there isn’t a bunch of half trampled hay to fiddle around with on the ground. The boys seem more content when they are pushing around inedible hay on the ground looking for some sort of “jewel”. Perhaps I will look for some crappy hay that they can play with, as Erika suggested, but I think I will give them a few more days to get used to a “new normal.” They have only been in my old horse paddock for about a week, before that they were fed off the ground as my horses were still at home. When fed off the ground, they fiddle around forever looking for some extra piece fo grass and weren’t mooing so much even though the got the same amount of hay. Reguarding the hay, I certainly wouldn’t have bought this hay just for the oxen, but it was left over from the horses and I thought I would give it to the boys. They definetly seem to enjoy it and they looked like they could use some extra weight. I am going to have to put some thought into how I am going to keep and handle round bales next year. I am better set up for the small squares right now and around here everyone (at least around here) seems to bale the “not quite horse-quality” hay into rounds. I still like feeding out of the manger, but to do this with the rounds, I have to figure out how I am going to get a round bale into my barn. Not an easy proposition… Perhaps I will give up and go with a round bale feeder like so many others do, but I have time to figure that out. Eitehr way, I have plenty of hay until spring, which looks like it’s going to come early this year. Then, they will plenty of grass to hold thier attention. One good thing about the manger feeding is that when they are eating, I get a really good chance to “mess with them” getting them used to me, my voice, general handling, etc. This sort of close daily contact wouldn’t necessarily happen if there was a round bale feeder in a field that I just chucked hay into. In the middle of winter, I can seem myself getting a little lazy about the daily contact that is probably important if I had to do this outside in the snow and cold.

[Andy Carson]

Getting back to the physics of the sled runner and the placement of the bunk… I have had difficulty modelling the drag from the sled runner with different runner shapes and with different bunk placements when the sled is on dirt. I pulled a “phone a friend” to my friend who is a mechanical engineer. After much discussion, I found that this modeling is indeed very hard for a lot of reasons. I am still thinking about what this all means, or how this knowledge can be applied, but I wanted to share none-the-less. I find it interesting at least.

So, the first thing I leanred is that modelling the pressure underneath the runners is complicated because one surface (the steel runner) is non-flexible, and one (the soil) is complient (flexible compressible). Because the soil is flexible, the vast majority of the pressure along the runner is going to be carried by the leading edge and the trailing edge. Kinda like if you put a log in a hammock: almost no pressure is exerted by the center of the log. This explains the wear on the rear edge, which has been a particular fascination of mine.

The other thing that I found very interesting is that the friction coefficient of steel on dirt is not constant, but varies with the pressure placed on the soil. This is due, at least in part, to the ability of loose soil in direct contact with the steel runner to roll and slide over the soil particles beneath as well as slide and roll on the steel runner. So, the soil particles have two surfaces that they can interact with a several options as to the nature of these interactions. Obviously, the interaction with the least friction will be preffered. This ability of soil to act as a semi-fluid occurs only at low pressures and greatly reduces the relative draft. When soil is compressed over a runner, the particles aren’t free to slide against each other or roll and there is an increase in friction and drag. I think this a good explaination for the reduced draft on the stoneboat vs the sled in Tim’s work. Interestingly, the stoneboat advantage goes away on the Hayfield, which could be because the soil is fixed in place by sod in this setting and not able to act as a semi-fluid. Also, I learned (and this is a gut reaction on the part of my friend) that this kind of semi-fluid movement would only occur on pretty large surface areas with pretty low pressures. The exact numbers and pressures that form this threshold would vary with soil conditions, but this probably won’t happen with “standard” runners. One would probably need something like a stoneboat to see this. So, simply widening the sled runner a few inches is not going to make much of a difference… You would need a plate (or similar) which seems less practical…

Again, I am going to have to digest this a little to see if this might be just food for thought or if there might be any jewels that might lead to improvements in sled design. Just thought I would share…

[Andy Carson]

Sorry to hear about Ruth, John. I hope you are doing OK, losing a friend is tough.

[Andy Carson]

Hi Brad,
I have hauled firewood with her before, and she did well. Most of the firewood I loaded onto my sled, but I have ground skidded a few logs with her before too. This was a sideline for me, really, the vast majority of her working time have been in the field rather than the woods. She does great with her feet for me, but she can be picky about who she’ll give them to right away. The farrier I use now does her without stocks, but had to spend a litle time earing her trust to do this. This is a good example of her temperment in general. You have to spend a little time making her feel safe and earning her trust. Once you do, though, she’ll never question it again and she’ll work her butt off for you.
-Andy

[Andy Carson]

Valentine’s price has been reduced to $1200 to a good working home. I have gotten a fair amount of interest from people who want a “big person” trail riding horse or a ride & drive horse for a beginner to do cart/carriage work. She would probably be OK at this stuff, but I would like to see her go somewhere where her ample work skills are appreciated.

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the thoughts. I didn’t put Eli’s name up as I didn’t know if he wanted it presented in a public forum. I was happy to see some spirit out of the steers when I want working them and at home because I was worried about getting a team that was too slow. Like I said, the oxen I have been around before (which wasn’t alot) were so slow. I have been leading them around and getting them used to me and my wife. Once you catch them, they are gentlemen, but Costello requires bribery to catch. I have pretty much transitioned them over to my horse hay now. It’s still grass hay, but it’s green and leafy and sweet smelling. My wife calls it “cow crack” because they love is so much. I’ll have to watch them close to make sure they don’t get fat.

[Andy Carson]

One of the things that is so fun about these conversions for me is that there seems to be a variety of different approaches different teamsters take, when it comes to the “details.” The “detail” of bunk placement is a good example. These different experiences gives one the chance to form theories about bunk bunk placement (or anything else), present them, and have someone with first hand experience comment on them and say “Yes, that matches my observations” or “No, that not right because X, Y, or Z happens.” It’s kinda a test that I don’t have to do that informs theory and ultimately informs animal use. Sometimes it gets frustrating because observation (even careful observation) may not let someone know if the ground is compressed 0.5 inches or 0.6 inches, for example, and how much work went into the 0.5 inch versus 0.6 inch compressions. This is why I rely on and quote Tim’s work so much in these conversations. I few measurement in real work situations can go a very long way. I truly beleve that a synthesis of real-world experience and theorical knowledge can not only explain why some traditions tools work well, but can also improve them. Most importantly, though, I think this is fun to think about. I am glad that other find it fun to think about too.

[Andy Carson]

I am trying not to sidetrack this thread too much, but I think my interest in the value of “floatation” vs “front end lift” is directly correlated to bunk placement, which is a big part of this thread.

Tim, I agree a wider runner would have more of an advantage in in rough conditions where floatation is a concern, but I am not sure these are not “normal.” Your work with the sled vs stoneboat (which I googled up) demonstates a significant draft advantage when you have floatation (via stoneboat) in “firm soil” and on “tilled and settled” soil. I think that “firm soil” is probably a really good “real world” representative we have for this work. Tilled soil is probably a stretch, but one areas where I have run my sled alot (particularly in corner where the runners push dirt around) I think its a good real world approximation.

As far as the wider rear track goes, I think you are right, Tim, that it would probably would snowplow dirt to the side if it was a copy of a parabolic ski. This effect could be fixed pretty easily though, by providing another angle of attack in the widened track area. This could be done by putting a runner next to the main and giving it a smooth downward angle of attack to push dirt down rather than to the side. If engineered well, having a narrow track in the front could provide positive tracking in the area where steering occures and provide floatation in rear where more weight is carried. It could be the best of both worlds, and looking at Tims stoneboat vs sled comparisons, there is room for a 25-30% reduction in draft with proper floatation if nothing else is lost. This much improvement seems like it’s worth serious thought.

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