[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the nice photos Vicki. I think you’re right about the bow height. I know i can move it up quite a ways before they choke. It doesn’t make sense that I would have the bows so low on my team, which look to be a smidge smaller than yours… I’ll see if this effects they head height.

[Andy Carson]

Are you making this for one horse or two? How much articulation will there be between the from of the the runners and the shafts or pole? This might seem to not matter much, but if the runners are able to lift up a little in the front, it would put almost all the weight on the wheels. If this happens, the skids would primarily be for braking and would change how they might be designed.

[Andy Carson]

I wonder if this position is due mostly due to them being out of shape and working hard. When we stop, it is because of heavy breathing and I can see and feel that the muscles that work the hardest are the triceps and the neck is a close second. I do not see any obvious signs of discomfort, but these boys can handle alot of discomfort, esp when they know it’s coming and can brace for it. On a lighter load, or if not load, they keep their heads higher, but I wouldn’t say they are ever “high.” Perhaps as they gain condition, their heads will come up? I think perhaps at this point the neck is the weakest link in the muscles that have to work together to move the load and they can compensate for this by keeping them really low. I tried moving the bows up, and although I can’t feel that they hit anything important and they do not have any breathing difficulties, they toss their heads around in what I interpret to be an attempt to get more comfortable. Does this position look “odd” enough that it should be an item I diagnose and fix immediately? If not, I am tempted to see if they will work thier way out of this naturally by simply getting in better shape.

[Andy Carson]

@Tim Harrigan 33456 wrote:

Still can’t see how the bows fit. How do they look without a load, just standing with their heads up? I am also interested in the depth of the bow, the separation between the neck seat the chain attachment point. Is that a Howie yoke?

I’ll have to take another photo for the first part of this. I want to pay very close attention to yoke fit and design because I feel like it is absolutely critical to the work I want to do. The yoke I am using I borrowed from Vicki to get started and I am very thankful for it. It’s really closer to a 9.5 inch yoke than a 9 inch yoke. There is 5.5 inches between the neck seats and the plate that holds the ring. The staple is we led to the plate on this design and it rather narrow. The distance between the neck seat and where the the ring rides in the staple is closer to 6.5 inches below the neck seat. This seems in line in a general sense with the tillers yoke plans. All except for the staple is fairly central and narrow and doesn’t have the abilty to slide to the back of a wide slot as in the tillers design. Maybe this is tilting the yoke more than it would otherwise? Other than this, the biggest difference is in the width of the yoke. This one is has 21.5 inch between the bows, where tillers designs would have recommended a few more inches between the bows. Andrew Van Ord is making me a 10 inch yoke, which is only slightly larger than this one. Any other things to measure? I care about yoke fit alot.

[Andy Carson]

Very nice. Thanks for sharing Simon. Both of these designs have the bunk placed ahead of the wheels (just a few inches in the first picture, a few more inches in the second) and they would have the automatic braking effect I was referring to. All these neat little ideas that seem to roll around in my head seem to be already invented by Scandanavians. Funny… I really like these designs, particularly the red one.

[Andy Carson]

Here’s a picture from the front, maybe this will help. We are stopped, but there is tension on the chain and the yoke is where it will ride when moving. I can imagine that commenting on yoke fit by looking at photos has got to be hard… I wouldn’t have worried about it if it weren’t for that I have read that certain head positions can indicate a lack of comfort. Thier necks and bodies are changing so fast on thier diet of horse hay and the regular schedule of hard work. I feel like it’s only a matter of time before they move into a new yoke. I want to make sure I catch the signs.

.

[Andy Carson]

A sharper point was all I needed. I made sure to test the point on myself to make sure it hurt, but wasn’t going to pierce the skin or cause any sort of damage. Easy fix.

[Andy Carson]

My team both hold thier heads low when pulling, but in slightly different positions. It ameks me wonder about yoke fit a little. I tried moving the yoke up, but they were obviously uncomfortable. There isn’t much room to move the bows down more, but perhaps I should try o squeeze out the last inch and see what happens. Can anyone tell from looking at this photo if thier heads down approach looks like thier own style or if it looks like I might have a yoke comfort issue? Short of trying different sized yokes (which is difficult) how can I tell?

[Andy Carson]

Hey john,
I am glad you are doing this. I have had ideas about partially wheeled sleds that have been rolling around in my head for a while and I am excited to see what you come up with. The idea seems great, but braking could be a limiting factor depending on how you rig it up. Are you going to have a pole to hold the load back? If you have 2500 lb load, and are only dragging 750 lbs, you only have maybe 375 lbs of drag. The whole thing could take off on you on a downhill of 15% or more. Something to think about… if you put the wheels behind the bunk and elevate them compared to the runner height, the wheels will only engage when there is a pull in the front of the sled, which elevates the front sled runner. In a braking situation, where there is no pull in the front, the runners would be engaged ( not the wheels). If designed carefully, you could have the draft advantages of wheels, and the brake and loading advantages of a sled, best of all, the braking would be automatic and exactly proportional to the load. If you put a pole on this, you could have even better braking than with a sled b/c braking would essentially jackknife the front of the sled into the ground. Something like this is what I kept toying with in my mind. Feel free to take it if you want. I am curious to see what you come up with. 😮

[Andy Carson]

@Howie 33391 wrote:

Andy
Forget the put in and puy out, they sound to much alike. It is stand in and stand over.
Under the edge of the base of the tail your finger nail will move him.

Perfect! Thanks Howie, this is exactly the kind of tip I was looking for.

[Andy Carson]

Ha! Yes, I can really feel the emotion of his charactor… 🙂 Did you know he was going to Hollywood? He is going to have to be careful around those viking-looking dudes, they look like they might want his horns for thier helmets! 🙂

[Andy Carson]

I carved the butt end of my stick into a point (not a sharp point) to teach my almost 5 year old team to “put-in” and “put-out”. They both tend to initially lean into the pokey end of the stick (instead of moving away from it) and it takes quite a while for them to become uncomfortable and shift away. I worry the command is out of thier head by the time they put in or put out. I can physically push thier rear ends over, but this isn’t easy, is questionable safe, and is only going to get harder as get get bigger. Not a long term solution… I was told they do not know these commands, so I have to assume I am starting from stratch here. If I tap anywhere near thier rear end, they interpret this as “come,” and I can understand why. Does anyone out there have any other tricks I can try to teach these lateral commands?

The goal is to have them step sideways so they are centered over the pole to hitch up. With the standard “come”, “gee”, and “haw” commands, I can get them really close to just right, but a foot off in the back means one of them is over the pole… Stepping sideways would be an easy way to get centered.

[Andy Carson]

I tried several sticks/goads with the boys today. My favorite was a simple stick of green willow, maybe 5.5 feet long, and tapering from about an inch in diameter down to maybe 3/8 inch at the thin end. It has a wonderful and immediate feel to it, I can tell exactly how hard I have tapped. It also has a mild curve to it, helps me reach parts of my off ox that are partially blocked by my nigh. It’s got plenty of umph to it if you swing it hard. I am trying my level best to reach my off ox’s legs, but my boys work with their heads so low that I really have to thread a needle to get over there. I often inardertently bump my nigh’s legs in the process, which is counter productive. I would really prefer not the work the head at all, but I don’t feel so bad when using a stick on the forehead. I can place a stick very precisely, much more than something with a lash…

[Andy Carson]

Tim, Thanks for the thoughts and insights. I don’t want to give the wrong impression. I really enjoy my new team and I am proud of what we have beeen able to do as a team. This isn’t a bitch session, more of a “how can this get even better” session. I suppose the quietest times are when the boys are pulling a medium to med-light load and are asked to go instraight lines and do simple 90 degree haws for several minutes. They get in a comfort zone with these types of movements they know well and are easy for them. Rule breaking sometimes (but doesn’t always) happens when they are asked to break this ruitine. Whoa, by the way, is great with the sled. They’ll whoa for 15 minutes at a pop without twittering after pulling it for a while. Whoa, and any other command, carries significantly less weight without the sled attached. That sled is like an adolescent ox tranquilizer… Carried too far, though, they get over tired and start acting up again. So, I suppose the three main triggers for rule breaking 1. work without the sled 2. overloading the sled and 3. asking them to do things that forces them out of the “come, haw” box like asking for a 180 degree gee turn. The vast majority of these are minor “bitches” on their part, but sometimes turn into mini eruptions. One thing that tend to do cause these little situations to flare up is if I over correct. This is why I am looking into goads to replace my whip. Think it my interpretation of my signalling dialog with my off ox when things go wrong.

Me: “Gee” (fiddle with whip)
Abbot: “maybe he will forget”
Me: (tap with whip)
Abbot: “He doesn’t mean it”
Me: (WHAP)
Abbot: “Holy sh*t what was that!!!” (irrational fear, forgets Gee command)

This is why I am looking for a tool with a medium speed… Sometimes I can feather the “whap,” but I am not very good at it.

[Andy Carson]

I think I will try to transition to the legs. I don’t mind tapping on the head, but if I give them a whop on the head, I am not leaving myself any harsher treatments for if they are very very bad. The two situations that generate a “whop” right now are 1) ignoring several taps (which I view as willfull disobediance) and 2) Not Whoaing. Even though I think both of these are major infractions, I would still like a more gentle signal that does not generate confusion, and does not have the potential of injury. I do really appreciate the quiet and peaceful relationship you have with your ox(en) in your videos, Tim. It is my goal to get to that point someday. I think at this early stage, I am going to have to be strive to be strict but also fair about enforcing my rules and we probably won’t get really quiet 100% of the time for a while. Right now, I can see spurts of the quiet that I expect to be the future norm, but they are still punctuated by periods of “rule breaking.” I am begining to appreciate the whip or goad with oxen as the equivalent of a bit for horses. It is the primary tool by which I communicate with the animals and choice of tool is probably dictated both by the teamster and the animals and likely have to fit both in a very personal way. Personally, I tend to be direct, strong, and quick in my communication, and I probably do not need a tool (such as a lash) that is going to amplify these traits. I have always used the most gentle bit possible on horses and bet I would like the most gentle goad as well. I think that is a stick. I suppose it that is too harsh I will use a feather duster. Just kidding 🙂

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