[Andy Carson]

I’ll see about a video. I have to convince my videographer… It would be nice to show a video of the steers too.

[Andy Carson]

I got a chance to test the cultivator, modify it, and do about 1/3 of an acre. The modifications included 1) adding some weight (about 100 lbs) to keep it from walking on the points 2) reducing the number of tines from 9 to 7 (to reduce over all drag) and 3) adding some wide washers to keep the c tines from denting the soft wood. After all this the cultivator is freaking awesome! It does push a little dirt/trash in the center, but it doesn’t have far to tumble to reach the edge. The effect is that the clumps of grass are tumbled around until the dirt is off the roots. Perfect! The amount fo weight it takes to keep the points in the ground varies alot with moisture (even from day to day), so ut is good that I can adjust it by adding if subtracting blocks. I think that because I am trying to keep minimal weight on the skids, they will wear slowly. It’s way too early to tell about this. It does pull substantially harder than a regular springtooth, maybe 50% harder per foot, so my swath is smaller, but i dont’ have to go over it again and again. This tool is highly recommended, and pretty easy to make. 🙂

[Andy Carson]

I am glad to hear that you are thinking about increasing the animal draft contribution in your operation, Kevin. Are you thinking or switching to 100% draft power or going part tractor? The amount of land seems pretty large and the tasks varied. How much of that ten acres do you plow every year? Would you use the same practices as you use with the tractor with animals or modify things significantly? With that much pasture and what I imagine to be a long grazing season, more oxen might be cheap to keep, if you go that way. I know in the west especially oxen are very “weird” to many people and almost seem like a novelty animaln rather than a real working animal. I have had to do alot of explaining to my own family too (who are also westerners). Focusing on the economics of oxen makes a strongest argument in my hands and for the people I talk to. If you are very serious about this perhaps it would be useful to plan out what operates would need done and how long you have to spend doing each operation. I have found this gives a good idea, but it probably better to budget twice the time (more or less) to account for weather, breakdowns, etc. Between the rural heritage site and the expertice of everyone here, you can get a pretty good idea of how much work you can expect from different sets of animals doing different tasks.

[Andy Carson]

Yes, Mitch, I would be very interested in how this works out. Particularly in knowing exactly how many pigs root out exactly how much land in a specific amount of time. Last I did this calculation, I ended up needing a large number of pigs to do the work at a pace I considered useful. From a short read, it seems the number of pigs required for this and how much land they cover in a given amount of time is extremely varied. You are coming up with the number that each pig covers 2000 square feet before you slaughter them? That means it would take 22 to cover an acre… This is not too far from the numbers I was coming up with but I just don’t want that many pigs. I will be very curious to hear what you come up with in your experiment and if the numbers are close. Please keep us in the loop. I am very interested in pigs being part of a management scheme, even if they are not doing all the heavy lifting. Perhaps I could disc and then turn some out on disced ground. Perhaps this would allow them to cover 10 times the ground? I could see this kind of mixed tillage being effective… Just playing with the idea…

[Andy Carson]

@Tim Harrigan 34458 wrote:

if you had any regrets switching from your single horse to the oxen. In some ways they are very different, but I think the similarities out weight the differences.

I do not regret switching and think that a team of oxen are a better choice for my farm. I hate to go into the old horse vs ox thing again, but in my experience might differ from that of some others so it might be useful to list a few aspects that are different in my hands. This might be useful to someone.

Management time.
Oxen are definately easier to care for in many ways. Not suprising, really, that oxen have an edge here as horses are the most difficult and time consuming animal I have ever owned.

Feed cost.
I was expecting this to be an advantage for oxen, but it has turned to be almost a equal. Yes, I can feed them cheaper hay. I can save 50% on bale cost per bale, but then I feed 50% more hay. Right now, this is a wash. Perhaps when people sell thier excess hay from last year I can stock up and really save money. Grain cost has been equal as well because I am graining my growing oxen at about the same level as I was graining my mature horses. This will likley change in time.

Pasture
Oxen are clear winners when it comes to efficiently utilizing pasture evenly without overgrazing or tearing up pasture from running around.

Speed
My oxen are significantly slower than my horse. They can be pushed to walk at about the same speed as a horse walks, but thier endurance at this speed is very very crappy. They can work for a long time if the work can be kept slow. There are advantages to a slow speed though, and tillage is a good job for a slow speed.

Person-specific behavior
My oxen respect me, but I would never ask my wife to lead them from one pasture to another or work with them in any meaningful way. They have been exposed to people they have to work for and people who are scared of them. As a result, they try to figure out which type of person you are. Clearly, if they can intimidate someone, they will not behave. I try to keep such people out of the field because I don’t want them to learn that they can be intimidating. Horses do not do this much.

Farrier/Dentist cost
Clearly the oxen win this catagory

Grooming/harnessing/hitching
I have seen this listed as an advantage for oxen, but in my experience this is a wash. My oxen tend to get dirtier than my horse, so the grooming time is increased significantly. Also, the oxen really love getting groomed (eps having thier necks scratched) so I tend to spend a little more time on it as opposed to my horse who just wanted to get to work. The increased grooming time is compensated for by the much faster yoking time.

Power
Two oxen are clearly stronger than one horse. Are they twice as strong? Not right now, I would guess the power is about 150% of a single horse. Still, even if the power increases by 50% and the feed cost is the same, this is a functional increase in power per dollar or feed. This was the goal, and I think they accomplish it.

Life expectancy
This is somewhat of a touchy issue, but I am thinking that if I want to start my next team from calves (which I do) I should start thinking about getting some calves maybe next year or so. That way, the next team will be ready to do heavy work before I run a risk that age starts to slow or stop my current team. This can be done with horses too, but the time to get “too old” seems longer and it is so easy to bank on buying another horse or set of horses when a current team breaks down. This means that for a while, I am going to be spending time working two sets of animals (unless I can learn to work them together). I will have to see how this going with my time, etc. A perfect animal would have a longer lifespan.

[Andy Carson]

Mine sometimes get “food crazy” too. When I lead them to the sacrifice are of the the hitching post, I alwasy make sure there is a small amount of grain waiting for them so it’s a positive experience. Watching them try to be patient while I either unclip the lead or tie them is very funny. Food just makes them so happy. It makes other wise smart animals look very dim. Silly critters.

[Andy Carson]

I agree residue might be an issue in some applications. The tines did end up being closer visually than it looked like they would be when I drew this out. It looks a little like a rake. I think for the specific application I have this won’t be a problem, though. The trash in the field is so well chopped up with all the discing I have done that I do not expect it to clogs substantially. I’ll have to see about that. This implement is designed to deal with large trash by pushing it to the side (cultivator style) rather than passign it through. I don’t see this as a problem on an implement in the range of 4 feet wide that operated are a relatively shallow depth. Double that width (or depth), and you might end up with big ridges that might take alot of work to smooth out. If the ridges created by pushing trash to the side are small enough to be harrowed out, I think I might prefer the “push to the side” trash management approach rather than the “pass though” strategy. One reason is that it is difficult to imagine how trash could clog the whole system when it is pushed to the side. I don’t have this problem in the field now with the springtooth, but have had this problem in the past in trashy fields. With multiple gangs (IE with a traditional springtooth), trash often passes though the first gang and gets caught up on the second or third gang, where interferance from the tines in the first and second gang prevent lateral movement of the trash around the rear tines and the trash gets hung up. This caught trash then nets more trash until the whole thing is plugged up tight and you have manually rip out the trash. Wider spacing and fewer tines would likely help to aliviate this problem in a multiple gang situation, but I just wanted to point out that the “multiple gang”, “pass everything thru” setup does have a downside when it comes to plugging that a single gang V setup is less likely to have. If this things makes big ridges, though, I will have little choice but to go with the multiple gang setup. We’ll see.

I’ll also have to see about the strength of the wood. I have actually had pretty good luck with using wood lately to build implement frames (although it have been too weak in some aplpication in the past). You are right about the torque, Tim, but the wood is at a 45 degree angle to the applied torque, which strengthens it substantially. Also, the spring in the C tines helps to reduce the shock load. In my experience, preventing shock loads is incredibly important is wood-based designs. I am also careful to use big washers at the junction points. So, I think the wood frame has a good chance or surviving well enough, but I am not 100% sure. I figure it’s worth a try for th price of wood. Also, it give me a chance to see how this geometry works in the field. Perhaps I need a ground up design change? If so, there is little money lost in the initial wooden design.

PS. It is interesting that you bring up the wooden implements, Mitch. I am very curious how common they were in the past. Perhaps they were very common, but simply rotted much faster than the metal designs?

[Andy Carson]

New tool. Basically a cultivator with wide sweeps. I think there is little chance grass will not be undercut with this tool as the sweeps overlap a full two inches. I am planning on following with a spike tooth harrow to level out the ridges this tool will likely create and to continue to disturb any remaining grass. The threaded rods let me adjust the depth very finely (although not quickly). I find myself not changing depth much once I like a particular depth anyway, and often am frustrated by wanting something inbetween standard settings. I set this for 2.25 inches deep. You can see I only clad half the runners in steel and left the rear just in hardwood. I’ll see how that goes. If t wears too fate, I can just cover the whole thing in steel. I have heard good things about how wood wears on runners so thought I would give it a try in a less stressful situation (IE the rear of a runner). I have two more c tines and sweeps to make for 9 total, but 7 looked like a load, so I’ll see how it goes. I am discing once more to make sure everything is loose before I head out with this thing.

[Andy Carson]

Humans might just be the most forgotten and underrated draft animal. 😉

[Andy Carson]

This is another handcart I made for hauling water. It’s really just a small ultility trailer with a wheelbarrow handle and some eyebolts added (which you all can probably see). Geese and Oxen drink ridiculous amounts of water and with rotated pastures, water tanks are often out of the range of hoses. I end up hauling about 40-50 gallons a day in some pastures. This is a pretty slick way of hauling 55 gallons at a pop. That’s like 5 trips with buckets, not counting the time waiting for them to fill… For heavy loads like this, an over the shoulder chest strap is the way to go. For the strap, I used a breeching from a horse harness I have been stealing parts off of.

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for all the thoughts and good insights. I think I am going to make a tool with wider sweeps. I have some C shanks that are taking up space in the garage and attaching wide sweeps and making a frame seems very do-able. I wondered if S tines would be more suitable, but I understand that part of thier advantage is in that they vibrate at speed. I think it is unlikely that my oxen are going to achieve the speeds required for this vibration. I also like that the s-tines would move around rocks, but as the ground is already broken up, it is likely that the rocks will move around the tines (rather than the other way). I am planning on 7 or 9 shanks with 8 inch sweeps set up in a V pattern with a 2 inch overlap. I’ll probably run them at a depth of 2 inches, and a total width of 4-4.5 feet. I suspect this tool will pull somewhat harder than a springtooth or equal width, which is why I am planning narrower tool than the springtooth my team is pulling. It is also pretty easy to take off shanks to adjust width. I am pretty happy with how much ground I can cover with a 4 foot wide implement, and suspect I will rarely make anything much wider.

I think that if I was growing vegetables, it makes sense that I should have zero weed tolerance. With field crops, though, I think some level of weed tolerance is appropriate. Not saying it’s OK to have lots of weeds, but zero is a tall order without chemicals.

By the way, I hear you about the roundup, nihiljohn. I am not going to say you are wrong or crazy in any way. The problem is using chemicals removes all the work I have done following organic practices. Truthfully, I don’t like the concept of roundup-ing a whole field, but I believe it is also a strategic mistake in my situation. If I use the chemical practices of a “big ag,” it puts me and wahtever I grow on equal footing with them. If I am going to spray, why not use chemical fertilizer? Why not plant genetically modified corn? Why not use tractors for all my work? If I did all this I would be surrounded by competition by conventional farmers throwing chemicals at thier problems and it would devalue my products a lot. It is just so easy to produce a crop when you jsut throw herbicides and chemical fertilizers at the problem. If I started to follow conventional proctices, the main thing that would differentiate me from the competition is that I work a lot less land. When conventional farmers struggle to turn a profit with hundreds or even thousands of acres, it’s easy to imagine where a 5 acre conventional venture growing field crops is going to end up… I feel it is important strategically to differentiate myself from conventional farmers in a meaningful and philosophically justifiable way. I believe following organic principles and using draft animal power is a good way to do this. In truth, part of this choice was dictated by personal preferance, but I think it does makes sense too.

[Andy Carson]

Thank for the thoughts. Part of my difficulty in thinking about this is that I am truly unsure of how much of a problem it is. I figure that using a conservative tillage techniques without the chemicals I am always going to be fighting the quackgrass (or similar) at least a little. Some spots in these plots are free or grasses, some spots are moderate. Nowhere it is even close to forming a “sod” or even a thick mat. If I have zero tolerance for quackgrass, I will be moldboard plowing every year, which defeats the purpose. I need to figure out how much is too much. I think corn is pretty sensitive to grasses, I am not sure about sunflowers. Both would provide alot of shade if they can get a good start, and I can cultivate between rows, which I am hoping will give me a chance to cultivate in a way that might approximate a summer fallow.

I am going with the strategy of till, let the grass regrow, and then till again. I have read about the dessication technique, but have little faith in it in my climate, esp in spring. Truth be told, I am not 100% sure what species every peice of grass in my field is partly because I did plant some covers and I partly because I am trying to till everything very early and I am better at identifying grasses when they have collars and/or seedheads. I am basically identifying them as “problem grasses” if they have an extensive root system and if they survive the tillage I have performed already. Problem is with the springtooth, I am only getting a partial kill and uprooting action with these regrown grasses. I was curious about different tools, perhaps something with wider sweeps to make certain everything is undercut. It makes sense to me, but I wonder if 1) anyone has experience with a tool like this in a small scale situation or 2) quackgrass (and similar) is so tough that is it unreasonable to expect any sort of tillage (other than moldboard plowing) to knock it back an appreciable degree.

Alternative approaches.
1) Intential overgrazing (I have 24 geese that will keep this area stripped bare for a good while, esp since it’s close to bare right now). Of couse, I am going to have to feed them a whole lot more than I have if I keep them off the good pasture.

2) Till a bit longer and plant buckwheat. I read that this works, but I have to say I have not had good luck with the use of cover crops to outcompete these perenial grasses. Even rye, which was SUPER vigerous in my hands, had some perenial grasses (including quackgrass) in the understory. It did make a big dent, btu this gets back to the question of how much is too much and how much tolerance makes sense.

[Andy Carson]

Are you really going the pick a pair to work? Do you have your eye on a couple? I would have started from calves too, if i had the space to keep two sets of animals. I’ll probably start my next pair from calves. I might start thinking about doing that next year, but I’ll have to see how it goes. Alot of people like Holsteins. I have been thinking about Holstein-Devon crosses, but again I have plenty of time to think about that.

[Andy Carson]

I do all my work on dirt or sod and am intending not to shoe at all. Will it be obvious when and if I need to shoe? What are the signs to look for?

[Andy Carson]

Hey Geoff, you had better not get too impressed of you are going to have to change your name to “nigh ox” 😀

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