[Andy Carson]

I am not sure how different the taste of a lightly worked young steer is from a young non worked steer. I am sure I would eat either one. That us the wonderful thing about oxen, they are both livestock and working animals. I won’t be eating either of my oxen for another 5 years at least (they would be 10+ years old then) but i am not committed to eating them then, either. At that point, they might be good starter team for someone, but who knows? The prospect of eating both if them is daunting just from the point if view if the mountain of meat that this is. I might sell them for meat too, but again thus is speculative at this point. What I will definately not do is sell them for less than beef price. There was an old English model of working oxen where two were calves were worked lightly, for a few years, then worked heavily in thier middle age, then fattened for slaughter in their old age. I think there is alot of wisdom in a system like this. Lots of beef and lots of power.

I am still very new with oxen, and i bought the yoke I use now. This was not the most economical choice, but i wanted to do heavy work right away and wanted to make sure it was built right as it will be the model for everything else i build. The small one for calves look especially easy to build.

Good luck no matter what you decide.

[Andy Carson]

It’s not my responsibility to prove what I did was humane to you, I was there and i saw how it went down and was happy with it. I am not saying it is the best tool for everyone in ever situation, but is a legitimate and very effective tool.

On the other hand, it is the responsibility of the person who says “studies have proven time and time again” to prove that statement. You have failed to produce a SINGLE reference comparing a spear to a gunshot, much less a whole group of studies that demonstrate this statement “time and time again.” Until these studies are produced, you statement is wholey and factually wrong. No doubt about it. I understand you are going to bring up lots of speculation and personal experience (none with a spear!), but none of this detracts from the fact that you simply do not know how humane a well placed spear can be until you use one and use it well.

The truth is a poorly placed gunshot can and will produce a slow and inhumane death just as well as a spear can. Have you ever shot a deer in the lung? It’s a heck of a lot better than a gut shot. Heres two examples of things that happen all the time with rifle hunting. Are rifles always humane??? Clearly not. It’s all about placement. Do you also disapprove of bowhunting? This is an even smaller spear that has less energy at the point of impact, produces a much smaller hole, and can’t be placed as accurately as a tool that never leaves your hand.

We all have our own subjective experiences to draw from and many of us (including myself) have killed enough animals to know when it was done well and when it wasn’t.

[Andy Carson]

@near horse 35705 wrote:

Sorry but it’s been shown over and over that a bullet is the most humane and effective way to dispatch animals (at least most mammals). Carl has the right technique – live trap them, move the trap to a safe location and shoot them. I can’t support using a spear as a primary choice with better choices available.

Ah ha!!! This is exactly the response I was suspecting from someone. I think you are playing devils advocate here, but I’ll play along. I dare you to show me a single study demonstrating that a spear to the heart doesn’t kill an animal quickly and humanely. Seriously. Dare on!!! :p

[Andy Carson]

What you do with the land probably has more of an effect on how much land you will want than anything else. Market gardening 4 acres is a lot more work than grazing 40, for example.

I make more money of of eggs than meat chickens. I only ever have a trickle of chickens for meat. I sell these almost exclusively to friends that happen to be immigrants for China or Korea. They are happy to get unplucked, ungutted chickens and they process them at home. They show up, buy a chicken, then I (or they) cut the head off, put it in a bag and go home. These cultures are used to buying chickens like this and seem ti appriciate the feshness of the chicken. They are also used to cooking techniques that tenderize and bring out the flavor of older birds. Americans, for the most part, have lost this knowledge and expect their birds to be cleaned and plucked for them. I have sold to some Americans too, but I’ve always got people waiting for meat birds and you can guess who I would rather sell to. The kegakity if the arrangement is suspect, but really they bought the chickens live and then did what they pleased with them. I keep this on a small scake, because there is some trust involved in this. By the way, those seemingly worthless silkies are known as “black chicken” by the Chinese and you can get a premium price for thier meat. This is a niche within a niche, however, so investigate you market well.

I am not sure I what the heavy investment in oxen refers to. Bottle bulls of major breeds make good oxen and are dirt cheap. If younwant to work oxen eventually there is going to be a big investment in you time no matter how you do it. You are going to spend money on feed for cattle whether you work them or not, and they are beef no matter what. It kinda like hearing someone say ” I want to learn to drive a truck, so i am going to buy a truck and let it sit in my driveway for several years. Then i’ll sell that truck and buy a second truck that i will actually drive.” Why not just drive the truck? It’s just sitting there… I believe there would always be potential work for a team of oxen on 20-40 acres, but if you are going to be doing it all with a tractor or something else, perhaps the effort isn’t worth it. Perhaps it would be helpful to think about what exactly you want to do with 20-40 acres. Depending on how and what you do on this land, this can be a bigger bite than you can chew. I will admit I sometimes struggle with 12.

[Andy Carson]

In formulating my thoughts on this topic, I realize that i do have high moral expectations surrounding killing. Does this serve the greater good? In some ways I think it probably does. Either way, i have a hard time letting go of these feelings. I also grew up killing animals and being around alot of death as is common on a pig farm. Many of these animals had names and i ate many of them. I was taught (and i really internalized) that this OK because we gave the animals a good life and a good death that many animals don’t have. This thought/feeling is hard to get out of my head, and i am not sure I want it gone.

That said, I can see your point, carl, that these morals can paralyze good people in some situations. I don’t see anything wrong with trying well intended techniques and have the potential of being quick and relatively painless. I had intended the phrase “experimenting with ways to kill animals” to refer to frivolous techniques that might have been chosen for non-practical reasons over a more practiced technique. I have to say I have killed many more chickens than anything else. I cut their heads off. It is not an experiment what happens next…

[Andy Carson]

Jeffery, my brief experience with oxen tells me that if they are given large spaces to graze, they will eat it all quickly and get fat. I am a strong believer in rotational grazing and moving the fence every day. It may seem annoying at first, but it soon becomes part of you ruitine and it really really increases the productivity of the pasture. I suspect you might benefit from a similar system. If you use a small mobile grazing area of electronet, which will hold the goat(s). By rotating goats and an ox over some mixed grass/brush areas, you could probably expand your pasture, too. My goats and oxen aren’t together very often, but when they are they basically ignore each other. They have their own kind to associate with, though. I think they would get along if alone, but someone else may had tired this exact thing before. The goats would appreciate some kind of shelter when it rains, too, but i am sure you can figure something out. This is probably how I would go about it. I am excited to hear how your single works out. Please share.

[Andy Carson]

Welcome Jeffrey!
Any chance you could put a goat or a sheep with your ox? These small ruminants are pretty cheap to buy and keep and I bet the ox would appreciate some company from a grazing animal.

[Andy Carson]

If your spear is wide and you aim well, the death is very fast. Bullets are all about placement, too. If you want to keep using the spear, I think it would be a good idea to dissect the coon and see where you have been hitting. I suspect you hit too low, as the vitals are pretty high on a coon. I have always gone through the ribs. If you didn’t go through ribs, you likely went too low (upless it was with an anterior thrust). The spear I use is over 3 inches wide and the head is over a foot long. If this gets in the chest cavity of a 20 lb animal (and probably any animal for that matter), it’s going die very fast. I do take this topic very seriously, and picked this tool to quickly kill animals quickly and humanely, not to play around. I think if you can’t get it to work for you in short order, I would recommend going with a gun or whatever works for you, as I do not like the idea of experimenting with ways to kill animals.

[Andy Carson]

I have 12 acres, 4 in an evolving tillage cycle and the balance in pasture of some sort. My animals include ~50 layers, ~25 young chickens, 2 oxen (will add 2 more this year), 5 goats, 17 geese, and 3 dogs. The most lucrative animal/crop for me has been the chickens, which I raise for thier eggs and sell the cockerels and old or cull hens for meat. They produce about $200-250 per month. The rest I am still working on. This is not a big part of my income, but it does help (rather than hurt) my finacial situation.

[Andy Carson]

Wow, Scott, it looks like a green island in a sea of black burnt wood. How did you do this? This has got to be one hell of a story…

[Andy Carson]

Nice Jen! They always look so innocent when they are in the trap, don’t they? We know better…

[Andy Carson]

I agree completely with Droverone. I did just the same thing this year. I got a grown team this spring and plan to start a pair of calves whenever they are born. I will likely be making a trip up to NY/New England to pick up the calves sometime this year. I’ll let you know when I am going and perhaps we can car-pool and split gas. My calves won’t take up much space, and I would likely have room to haul back a team (as long as they aren’t huge). The pickings are slim in western PA, and you will likely have to travel a ways to find a mature trained team. Do you have your eye on a team? What breed are you looking at?

P.S. Don’t count on the team training you. They are probably going to challenge your leadership sooner or later, and you are going to have prove yourself a confident and capable leader and trainer. Spending time with the previous owner is a good thing and I’m sure your class with help a lot.

[Andy Carson]

Yes, pretty close indeed! I imagine the farm is in eighty four? I am curious to hear your plans and look forward to hearing how things go.

[Andy Carson]

Welcome James,
Where in PA are you going? We might soon be neighbors

[Andy Carson]

I have several thoughts, George, if you are interested. Firstly, if you are happy with your animals and the progress you make, I would not get a tractor. It sounds to me that you would be getting a tractor to make your neighbor happy, which seems wrong to me. I have met many people that will never admit there is value in draft animal power (including some neighbors), and never fail to point out limitations. I have decided to agree to disagree with them. Most of the time, I can just walk away, but it sounds like you are stuck doing buisness with one. Perhaps there would be a way to change to nature of the arrangement? Perhaps your neighbor would be happy with a set number of bales per year or a set number of dollars per acre, which would give him no incentive to manage how you work the field. I understand these arrangements can be touchy, but I think this might be what I would propose. Perhaps the neighbor will go for it and it solves the problem… I think we both know that there are ways to get the work done with animal power, but sometimes it is hard and slow. I have always avoided owning a tractor because I feel I will go to it when there is alot of work to be done quickly or I am having some training issue. I feel that sometimes having an overwhelming amount of work that needs done at one time is a result of management mistakes on my part, and I need to suffer the consequences of those mistakes (rather than relying on a tractor to bail me out) so I don’t do it again. Likewise, I feel that having a tractor to “bail me out” of training issues will lead to animals that are less trained and less pleasureable to work with long term. I am sure everyone has different reasons why they farm, but working with animals and enjoying the quiet and peaceful solitude of nature is very important to me. I guess part of the answer to this question is what is important to you? If working with animals is very important, you might ask yourself “How does owning a tractor forward your goal of farming/working with animals?”

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