[Andy Carson]

Carl, do you see connectivity as a never ending quest?

If it is not a never-ending quest, how do we know when we are connected enough? I have been that young person yelling over the fence many times and I always got an answer. Once, I even yelled “I want a pair of Ayrshire/Milking devon cross bull calves” and got an answer. Twins, no less. You have to admit this is reflective of an impressive amount of connectivity. Is it enough? If your goal is to answer questions, I think yes.

If you judge connectivity by the percent of working teamsters who contribute to and frequent this site, than I suspect we might not be well connected. I think there are many people who simply aren’t into computers, technology, presenting ideas in public, or feel they should get paid for thier thoughts. If they simply arent’t on thier computers much, and don’t frequent any other websites, I look at it as a limitation of the communication system we have chosen and I am not particularly interested in addressing this problem. If they are on other websites, I think they are a prize that could be had. Do you feel or know if these “gems” are on other websites? If so, which? Perhaps something could be learned from these other websites and perhaps adopted by our own so as to attract more gems.

[Andy Carson]

I think of connectivity and networking as generally synonomous. Get everyone together is a big room, be polite, be inclusive. Don’t talk about religion, politics, life and death, or anything close to anyones heart. Avoid any topics that are controversial or might offend someone. Maybe show some pictures of your kids or pets and listen to people say “cute” or “here’s a picture of my kids.” Put on a big fake smile, shake a lot of hands, and pretend like you like this sort of thing. Don’t try to solve any problems or do anything substantial. Listen to other people try to pal up to you and sell you stuff you don’t want. Try to find polite and creative ways to avoid sales pitches or other conversations you arent interested in. Perhaps call yourself on your cell phone a couple times… Later, go home and bitch about what a terrible time you had and how boring everyone was. Like a big cocktail party.

[Andy Carson]

It like the goose analogy, Mitch, but what do you do with a goose that tries and tries to lay silver eggs and they keep coming out gold? 😉

[Andy Carson]

Thanks for the additional information, Carl. I truly was not aware of much of this history and it gives me much to check up on and think about.

I will check up on sponsorships and donations over time. I know how much comes from sponsors/grants/individuals now, but will need to check to see which parts have grown or fallen off in the past years. If (and I do mean “if”) some sources of funding have remained constant while the membership has grown, I suspect we need to investigate other sources of funding. Additional content is one way to do this. If (again I mean “if”) these origional sources of funding have dried up, than I think we need to regain these, or at least see what is needed to regain these is within our scope/ability before we gamble with modifying content/accessibilty to see if this helps.

We may just have to agree to disagree about the relative values of content vs connectivity. At first pass, I find it hard to understand how such a reasonable and intelligent person can ignore real data and surveys demonstrating public interest. But let me try to step into your shoes for a moment, and perhaps, you can step into mine.

The detailed nature of your post and historical perspective helps me understand some of the logic of your position, and I see this largely as a matter of perspective. I think that at the beginning of a website such as this one, the biggest challenge is attracting people to the site and the organization. “come look” “come post” “come read” “come visit” These are enormous challenges in a busy world and a busier internet. I can see how a strong focus on creating and maintaining connectivity would help here. I can also understand how by focusing on connectivity has created this organization and grew this website. I can see how this might become proof, in someones mind, that connectivity is the key. If someone is really focused on connectivity, I can see how the site might be used as a social network with some side discussions that generate content. Correct me if I misunderstand your position and logic, Carl. I think this is a reasonable and intelligent position based on the history of what the website/org was and how it came into being.

Now, if you could, please step into my shoes. I came to this site as a beginner at working animals in meaningful ways. I needed specific and general advice on how to do this. No one came to talk to me about this site. Advertising had no impact on me whatsoever. Even then, about 3 years ago, this was by far the best site to get advice for folks who wanted to do real work with thier animals. I know, because I checked out many sites before I chose to frequent this one. I chose this website because of content. In the past few years, content has only improved, and I am proud to have played a role in this. Content rich threads are not only popular with me, but also with hundreds (probably thousands) of others like me, who found the site through websearches and have been brought into the fold through text contributions and memberships. Today, DAP.com is the #1 result when you type “draft animal” into google. This is HUGE. I did not know the orginization before 2009, and didn’t experience the times when (I suspect) no one had heard of it. Today, I find it impossible to believe that anyone wanting to obtain info about draft animals online will not have checked out the #1 google search result. For me, I am honestly not interested in the social club aspect of DAP.com. Facebook does this better, and is indeed what a social networking site looks like. Facebook does such a good job at social networking, I would argue, that those who are intersted in a socializing go to the DAP facebook page. Those that come here, I and the data would argue, want something different. I come here because I want information. I feel that “baiting” people with information and then “switching” to something else (like connectivity) is disingenuous.

I hope this helps you understand why I think the way I do. I think this is also a very reasonable position and it is clearly supported by facts and figures from DAPNet as it is now. I think it is important to think about what DAPNet is now and how this is different from what DAPNet was in it’s infancy. Perhaps it has grown in ways that were not intended, but I personally like the place it ended up.

[Andy Carson]

I think this is a good discussion to have. I am attracted to a compromise approach, where some content is free and some content is restricted to members. In truth, this is because I want to see some of this content and this seems like a good way to pay for it. From my survey of website interest, I am confident that others want this content too. My survey shows no evidence that connectivity is interesting or that people will pay for it. I think it is wise to discuss requiring membership and content the context of how much money we aren’t going to make by requiring membership compared to how much good we do by educating the nonpaying public and maintaining visibility. I am not married to requiring mebership, but I think we need to be honest that this is going to make money. I do not think the only measure of an organization is how much money it makes, but this is an important issue. It does no good to do lots of “good” and then die off. Better to do some “good” and remain economically viable in the long term. We simply can’t do the same things we have done and expect different results. Let me say this again. We can’t do the same things we have done and expect different results. We have a huge online visitorship. It is a huge asset. I believe we must do something meaningful to them. They have let their interests be known, very clearly in my mind. I believe we should listen.

[Andy Carson]

Additionally worth mentioning is the comparison between NPR and Sirius/XM radio. Both of these are “ad free” if we ignore the corporate sponsorship aspect of NPR and the brief ads on the Howard Stern show.

NPR has an annual budget of $166 million, compared to Sirius/XM’s projected revenue of ~3.4 BILLION. So for radio, the pay-to-listen strategy is more than even 20 times more effective at generating revenue than relying on donations alone. Again, these two strategies are not really even close in a head-to-head comparison.

Referances: http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/SIRI.O/key-developments/article/2634798

[Andy Carson]

It is also worth mentioning that HBO restricts all content to paying subscribers and generates over 3 BILLION in annual revenue plus 700 million for pay-per-view content. Compare this to the 571 million in total revenue for PBS… In this simple example, requiring subscription is over 6 times more effective at generating revenue than asking for individual and public donations. The two strategic pathways really aren’t close in terms of documented ability to generate income…

Referances: http://paidcontent.org/tech/419-what-recession-premium-cable-channels-continue/
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/business/media/pbs-shifts-tactics-to-reach-wider-audience.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[Andy Carson]

The NPR comparison is interesting, and I think worth some discussion as it provides at least one model we can follow.

NPR is a two tier organization. The national organization recieves the majority of its funding (37%) from member station fees. These member stations receive 39% of its funding from individuals, which is the single greatest area of contributions. Corporations provide only 17% of the revenue, or less than half as much as individuals. The corporation for public broadcasting (generated by the fed gov) provides 11.4%. Foundations, colleges, and “other” provide about 8% each.

Referance: http://www.npr.org/about/aboutnpr/publicradiofinances.html#npr

If we want to follow this model, we must dramatically increase the funding we obtain from individuals. Some of these funding sources for NPR are not avaliable to us, so other areas will need to increase proportionally to compensate. I think 50% support from individuals, 25% from grants, and 25% from corporate sponsors matches the NPR model pretty well.

[Andy Carson]

I am discussing the two issues (free riders and video) together because I see video as the enhanced content that might only be accessible to members that have paid something to support the video content. Videos are expensive and time consuming and will bring a sincere need for additional money.

You can look at the viewership of your videos a couple of ways, Tim. I agree that if the idea was to get as many people as possible to see the video, simply posting on YouTube would be the way to go. 50,000 views is a lot! But even if 5% came from DAP.com, that’s 2500 views. That’s a huge number for our small organization. With this large of a pool, each individual wouldn’t have to pay much to pay for the video production costs. That’s the idea.

[Andy Carson]

No matter how we slice it, I think we are swimming upstream to some extent. The overwhelming trend in online discussion forums is that they are completely free, they contain people that nearly never meet, and they collect information instead of generating it. I think we have already bucked this trend to some extent, and I am not sure if what trends we will buck in the future. I think a lot depends on if we can “do” anything in the real world that is meaningful to a lot of people.

I am not convinced that overall visibility of the site is a problem. What evidence do you have that this is a problem? Google searches bring interested people here quickly. With over 3/4 of the population online and google being the dominant seacrh engine, this is a huge amount of visibility to me. I do not think that a low number of DAP.org members means interested people are not aware. The site always has a large number of people viewing forums, but only a small percentage of these becomes a DAP.com member and fewer yet are converted to donating DAP.org members. I think that this is demonstrably a problem, and is clear by looking at the numbers rather than simply speculating.

I think that if we want more people to join, we need to supply something meaningful to a large number of people. This something meaningful must be in addition to what is already provided or people will say “I already have this.” I do not believe that ONLY holding in person events in Vermont (the second least populated state in the USA) is going to provide that meaningful content to a large number of people. Online videos can be accessed by everyone and might provide that meaningful content to a lot of people who are distant. I do not think this is a “slamdunk” from the point of view of converting “lurkers” to members, but I think is might work. It would certainly work for me.

[Andy Carson]

@Carl Russell 37876 wrote:

I think there are a lot of topics in this field of interest that people don’t realize that they are interested in, or don’t know that they should be interested in, or maybe they don’t even realize that an issue exists. Taking the time to make informational presentations on important topics will be more valuable in the long run, than just making presentations that respond specifically to expressed interests.

I agree completely. I think it would be uninteresting and unwise to simply regurgitate this same subject matter. I think the best content would be to present new information that “fits in” with these popular posts. Determining if something new “fits in” is always an intellectual challenge, but I think this survey gives us a mental framework that I think is helpful.

[Andy Carson]

I made a new hay rack and have been using it. This is a square design with 3 feed holes per side. It has a 6×6 floor to keep the hay off the ground and prevent trampling. It doesn’t have a roof, but I limit feed and the hay only sits in the rack for a matter of hours before it’s eaten. Despite all the design concerns we have discussed, my biggest design challenge was the goats (both large and pygmy) that I keep in with the cattle in the winter. I had to create a hay rack that would allow mature cattles heads in while not allowing pygmy goats in. The goats like to climb on the hay, and poop pee and trample it to the point that even cattle won’t eat it. The pygmies are about the size of an oxs head, so it was a bit of a design challenge. The solution I came up with was to raise the head holes far enough off the ground that the pygmies would have to jump to get through them. This alone wasn’t a complete solution, as goats can jump very well (even through small spaces). So, I added some fiberglass rods in a tight V shape to restrict the feed holes. They are stiff enough that small goats cannot jump through them, but flexible enough that large animals can push them to the side while feeding. The system seems to work well. Also, as you can see in the second photo, the feeder is portable, which I think is going to be very nice.

[IMG]http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj493/countymouse/bth_feeder.jpg?t=1354286066[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj493/countymouse/bth_hauling.jpg?t=1354286062[/IMG]

[Andy Carson]

I do appreciated everyones comments on this analysis. Addressing these concerns has given produced 3 different ways of looking at the numbers, and I will now present a fourth and fifth way that address some of these concerns. In this analysis, I have tracked the number of “high profile threads” in each category. In the first analysis, I have tracked high profile threads by category, with “high profile” threads defined as those that have generated 20 or more replies. Again, this is an arbitrary break, but it does generally correspond to thread generally seen as “interesting,” and those seen as “uninteresting.” As posts are definately generated by people, not robots, this eliminates this particular concern. After this, I have listed the “jackpot threads” as defined by number of posts. I put a star (*) next to any of these posts that are also listed as “jackpots” by counting views. There is a lot of overlap (64%) between the two methods, and alot of the “most random” threads are not found here. I think by using two methods to screen, you remove alot of the “randomness” in the system. I believe this goes a long way towards addressing the “rabbithole” aspect of using views alone to define “jackpots.” I will leave the reader to find patterns for now.

Draft Animal Power Network communication/Outreach
0 threads with 20+ replies, 0% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 19 replies

Our Member’s Map
1 threads with 20+ replies, 0.3% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 62 replies

Draft Animal Power Front Office
2 threads with 20+ replies, 0.6% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 45 replies

The Front Porch
34 threads with 20+ replies, 11% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 75 replies

Community of Interest
12 threads with 20+ replies, 3.8% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 48 replies

Draft Animal Power
134 threads with 20+ replies, 42% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 196 replies

Equipment Category
52 threads with 20+ replies, 16% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 92 replies

Sustainable Living and Land use
69 threads with 20+ replies, 22% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 117 replies

Marketplace
2 threads with 20+ replies, 0.6% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 43 replies

Draft Animal Powered Forestry International
6 threads with 20+ replies, 1.9% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 117 replies

Associated Organizations, Sponsors, & Collaborators
6 threads with 20+ replies, 1.9% of “high profile threads”
Most popular thread = 25 replies

List of “Jackpot” Threads with 80+ replies. Remember, I have starred (*) posts that are also “jackpots” by views. 64% are cross listed, and are clearly interesting by all measures.

Draft buffers* = 196 replies
Chicken predator ID = 130 replies
The future of the dairy cow??* = 117 replies
Odd Jobs* = 117 replies
Hybridized Timber Harvest – Horses and Fowarder* = 117 replies
Training Them Old School* = 116 replies
D-ring Harness Origins = 92 replies
The Bakery Wagon* = 91 replies
Fuel Prices….* = 89 replies
Scoot hardware = 85 replies
White bird play day = 84 replies
Haying Techniques with Draft Animals* = 83 replies
Logging workshop hosted by DAPNet and The Farm School Athol MA = 81 replies
Poll: Tragedy!!! Includes discussion of dramatic experiences, and blinders vs. open bridles* = 81 replies

[Andy Carson]

I am glad that you can see value in this survey, Carl, and I think you are right to be sceptical about looking at “views” rather than “posts.” Overall, the data trends are the same between the two methods, though, which validates both methods. I like to analyze data in lots of different ways and when the data are consistant, you can trust the results more.

I am certainly not suggesting that unpopular categories be eliminated, nor do I think this is wise. I am partly using this data to determine areas of interest, as well as the dpeth of knowledge people are interested in, in plan possible videos, events, or other enhanced in depth features that we might include in the future. For more expensive and time consuming things, I think it is wise to focus on the areas of highest impact. I think this analysis, along with in person surveys, will help provide guidance and is a better way to go forward than pure speculation. I do not think it is a substitute for speculation and thinking, but I believe it should not be ignored either.

[Andy Carson]

Geoff, when you mentioned counting views rather than posts, I was worried that this would select areas that were somewhat “sensational” and might get the attention of “passers by” rather than really engaging interested invividuals. The most popular thread, with 83,000 views, is an old link to a video of Neil Dimmock driving 26 horses, and certainly fits into this category. When you get past this post, though, it really gives you a lot of respect for the people that this site attracts and the degree to which they are attracted. The next most popular post is about using a D-ring harness on a donkey. This is an extremely specific topic that I doubt one could find anywhere but here. The next most popular is a electrolyte recipe for scouring calves. This is not “light and fluffy” reading material… Next is a discussion of horse progress days. It is interesting to note that there are several posts about horse progress days on this site, but this one was elevated to “superstar” status, while the others recieve only a moderate number of views. There are only 6 posts on the thread, too. The posts themselves say both good and bad things about the event (something this site is so great at!), but other threads about HPD seem just as in depth. This one is a mystery, but I think we should look for patterns in these data rather than try to explain specific threads… After the HPD thread, the next most popular is the discussion of draft buffers. I am somewhat susprized by the popularity of this thread, as I felt that even as I was contributing to the thread I worried it is was going to be nerdy, boring, and too detailed for a large audience. Clearly this was not the case. Here’s the complete list of the top 25 most popular threads, with number of views per thread (x1000). I will leave it to the reader to see patterns…

Check me out (Neil Dimmock video driving 26 horses) =83.1K views
D harness on a Donkey =31.6K views
Electrolyte recipe for scouring calves =22.7K views
HPD (one of several threads discussing Horse progress days) =18.5K views
Draft buffers =18.3K views
Training Them Old School =16.3K views
The future of the dairy cow?? =15.1K views
Odd Jobs =14.9K views
No.7 McCormic Deering Mower =13.7K views
FSA loans =13.2K views
Harnessing the Powers of Youtube for Good =13.1K views
Hi from Essex Farm =12.5K views
The Bakery Wagon =12.2K views
Haying Techniques with Draft Animals =12.0K views
Plans for forecart? =11.6K views
NAIS is not dead…. =11.5K views
Poll: Tragedy!!! Includes discussion of dramatic experiences, and blinders vs. open bridles =11.4K views
Cost of Maintaining DAP =11.0 K views
New Saw? =11.0K views
Driving oxen with lines indian style:good or bad? =10.9K views
What Do You Feed Your Horses? =10.6K views
How many horses =10.6K views
Hybridized Timber Harvest – Horses and Fowarder =10.4K views
Elephants vs Horses? =10.2K views
Fuel Prices…. =10.0K views

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