[Carl Russell]

Kevin, that looks like a blast.

Hope you had a good turkey day, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Scott G;22293 wrote:

…….So, how do we take the energy & ideas of LIF and move them forward through the rest of the year? This is a question…inquiring minds want to know……

Just for perspective, I attended LIF for the first time in 2003, and was equal enthused by my experience at a gathering of like minded folks sharing so many beliefs and working methods. Being a born networker, I was inspired to find some way to strengthen the connections between states, and to start some similar local effort. In 2005 we held a horse-logging workshop at our farm, with 40 attendees and 20 teamsters and support staff. That was the jumping off point for NEAPFD, and DAP.com, which have now grown into a fledgling organization DAPNet.

So in some ways we are taking that energy and moving forward already.

I really am also interested in building a collaborative text/digital/video resource to try to clarify LIF, ecological forestry, and the use of draft animals in the woods.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

jenjudkins;22272 wrote:

One more comment, for what its worth. I think a teamster should earn the right to use a leverage bit. Green hands on a leverage bit, could take the try out of a good horse very easily. Thinking on my recent experience teaching people to drive….I would never let a novice drive my horse with the reins set on a leverage setting (as a single). If Reno were in the frame of mind to need the leverage, I would take him out of the teaching setting and work out the issue before letting novice hands on the lines.

While I understand the point you are making here, from my perspective having the Liverpool on Kate this last weekend allowed the novices better opportunity to control, or regain control, as she is one horse that will, and did, take every bit of advantage she can get.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Nice, I hope that helps:D

[Carl Russell]

Jim, I must say, I am kind of at a loss as how to interpret that list. I can’t tell what the dollar amounts are supposed to represent? Can you explain, or show an example?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I prefer straight, as a jointed but will cause pinching which can lead to pain, which can distract the horse from feeling the release.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Andy, I agree that when working single I never had a problem with the subtle control I expect in working, or emergency situations. The condition for me was the different behavior between the horses when working together. My efforts to work the sweet spot with the mare were not isolated from the gelding, and he reacts much more negatively. This way I can with a modicum of line pressure at my hands, exert differing levels of bit pressure on individual horses, which in fact increases the subtleness(?) of the message…. in terms favorable to each individual.

I have to say, that my mare was so used to forging ahead on her own, that the first couple of times I used it, she was quite set-back. She really didn’t like the fact that there was such a powerful resistance on the bit… that wasn’t there before…. One big difference for me was that pressure required much less effort from me, and because it was so effective I was able to be more magnanimous and gentle with her. Once she tried a few times she could feel it too, and soon became comfortable and responsive.

I have not used it with her single yet, and am not sure that I will, but I haven’t used a jointed bit in a long time anyway, so at the very least I can hook her even and basically have the straight bit I prefer.

As far as safety, I’m not sure it has changed things. As I said before my working safety philosophy is not based soley on bit design. I just reentered this thread because I knew we had extended discussion here about these bits, and I had pretty much the same opinion that Andy is expressing…. although I had less personal experience to back it up. Currently, my experience is pleasantly opening my mind.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

These bits are straight bar bits. I really like being able to keep the lines adjusted where I want them.

As far as no pressure driving, we usually work our way to that, but now it is much faster as she comes up against the rigid edge of the “sweet spot” more succinctly, which is displayed by her with obvious expressions of understanding and acceptance, which translates to a more comfortable carriage, and a more cooperative relationship with the gelding.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

There are a few other considerations, such as these were only the first and second day we worked on this trail. I feel that after a few days the horses would become more conditioned to the particulars of the trail, and the loads could be increased. With frozen ground or snow, new horseshoes, and some time removing stumps (there was one real deal breaker on a turn after the bridge), I think we could be moving 500 bf at a time. Going another 100 feet we could have landed at the sawmill site, which could double as a truck landing.

With these improved conditions one might assume 1000bf/hr….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Carl Russell;713 wrote:

I have never use a lever bit so I have some questions. I have always assumed that they were developed for multiple hitches, where holding eight (or more) horses would make for a lot of line pressure. To reduce that and to maintain adequate mouth pressure for control the bit was developed to provide the leverage reduction.

That being my understanding (right or wrong), I assume that the use of lever bits is more about reducing line pressure than reducing mouth pressure as the teamster always has some leverage advantage over the horses mouth.

This may or may not be bad, but my objective with line pressure is to come to a one-on-one pressure/release relationship with the horse. I acknowledge that it can be a lot of effort sometimes to present adequate pressure to a learning horse, but with a straight bit I feel the very slightest acceptance, and therefore I can provide an immediate release/reward that matches exactly what I feel in my hands.

I’m curious if this can be accomplished with the lever bit? Is there ever a time when the lever bit is replaced?

I guess my questions rise from talk that I have heard from people who seem to subscribe to the conquer and control point of view, and promote the lever bit as perfect for this.

That is not what I have read here, but I think that it is important that we make sure that the teamster craft rises to the level of subtlety it requires. Carl

So armed with this lingering question, and facing a reasonably priced pair of Liverpool bits this fall at NEAPFD, I decided to buy them and give them a try…

I have been having a trial with my mare because she is so ambitious she often puts a lot of pressure on the bit, which is not so much a problem for me directly, but is indirectly because the line pressure tends to be too much for my gelding. This tend to be exacerbated when pulling as she is so hot off the mark, that she usually sits him back of the evener, which basically breaks his spirit.

I have been very pleased with the results of using the Liverpool bit, setting her down one hole, and leaving him set even. It has made thing much more comfortable for me, given her a much clearer message of what too much bit pressure is, and helped the gelding to become more confident because she is not so inclined to dive forward.

I always thought the lever bit was a pain-maker, because that is how it was described to me by people who wanted to drive their horses that way, but thanks to you folks, I was able to see the subtlety, and I’m very pleased with my findings.

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Per my earlier posts about training and conditioning horses to this work, this trail was curvy, uneven with stumps, humps, and hollows, and was on a steady incline up to the landing, over 800-1000′, so I could not move these loads in one long pull.

I asked the horses to start the load, and pulled 30-50′, then stop. This way I could assess how easily it was moving, and how ambitious they were. Then from there I would travel anywhere from 50′-100′, stopping at opportune places where they would have an easier time starting the load. Each time I asked, they would feel each other on the evener, then push and lift together. Before they tired too much, I would stop them and give them a few minutes to breathe. This way they are prepared to give me all they can each time, because they are not being run into the ground, and they have confidence in my asking them to give it their all.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

First of all there is a difference between the value of the material moved and the cost of moving it.

I did not mean to insinuate that I moved all sawlogs by estimating the size of the loads in terms of board feet. I just used board feet instead of saying cords. Either way, the loads were between 350-400 bf, or 2/3-3/4 cord. I moved 4 loads Sat Pm, leaving lunch at 1pm and returning at 4:30pm, and 4 Sun AM, leaving the barn at 8:30am and returning at 12:00pm with 1/2 hour break. I figure 1200-1600bf, or 2.5-3cd, or 12000-16000# in 3.5 hrs. I estimated the skid length at about 1000 feet, but no more…. possibly 800-900 feet.

If I were to charge $35/hr, the cost would be $122.5

That Brow I was hauling to was still a short haul from the truck landing, so there would be another forwarding cost, but at $50/mbf, or $25/cd,(figuring you have to take into consideration chopping, twitching, and second level forwarding, and still be less than the value of the logs roadside) the value of my contribution to the wood pile would be about $75, or more like $22/hr. Granted, I personally didn’t work that hard, but I had some assets at work.

What this highlights for me are several things. It was a tough trail to negotiate with a loaded sled. I would have been much different on snow, as well as if stumps were removed. I was just working on a trail I was told to, I really didn’t investigate other options. At any rate, this was an expensive access, and it is clear to me that to make any production income from that area, one would need to haul good quality material, and would plan that other areas on the site would afford more lucrative access.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Way to go…. more pics.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

A couple more, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here are a few pics from the MOFGA LIF workshop this weekend. I brought my bobsled to show one of the most cost effective ways to move volumes of wood with horses. It was a curvy, mostly uphill trail that crossed a bridge and a mud hole, about 1000 feet in length. We pulled 4 loads in 3 hours, averaging about 350-400 bf. It was excellent work for these two horses, and they showed a lot of heart…even when they got snubbed up they gave their all next try.

Carl

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