[Carl Russell]

goodcompanion;22945 wrote:

I’m a lot more comfortable with having a regional focus with in-person physical representation. But at the same time I have seen DAP.com growing wings and flying without anybody trying too hard (though that’s just from the outside looking in) and NEAPFD struggling. When we got to talking about holding the event this year just as in previous years I started getting uneasy.

This is all part of what we have bee trying to get across, including the Sunday meeting at NEAPFD.

DAP.com has been taking flight, but it has been as result of a lot of continual effort on my part. I have tried to make it be a function of my involvement as an organizer of NEAPFD, but as I have said, the three day event is not attractive enough to funders to support the year-round efforts. Also gate fees are paid for resources at the event, and not necessarily for those unseen things.

As far as NEAPFD struggling, this is not true. The event has never lost money. It is only when Lisa and I start to add up our annual salary of hours we have logged performing the tasks associated with the network that has grown up around the event, that the money falls short. We have reached the end of our ability to contribute at that scale to NEAPFD, but if those costs were to be supported by other revenue, including membership dues, grants, Website ads and fees, and newsletter advertisement, etc, then NEAPFD could easily continue in its current form.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

goodcompanion;22942 wrote:

…..

I have heard the idea circulated that part of the function of membership dues is to support the event which cannot support itself. ……

This is not the case. The membership dues are to demonstrate a cohesive group working toward supporting a network that facilitates the advancement of a community of interest. This effort, to be done effectively needs to have a year-round funding stream, of which member dues will only be a portion. This is what is taking the time for Lisa and I right now, and we are not getting paid for it, because NEAPFD, although not a losing proposition in its own right, cannot support the yearly work that we are doing as a result of that event.

It is the exact opposite of your premise. The event has always supported itself. It cannot support the other work that has sprouted from it. To support that, we need to form an organization that can provide those desired resources through some other broader community based income streams. There will only be a very limited benefit to members associated with NEAPFD, other than the fact that the year-round network can help to facilitate promotion, outreach, and participation.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Erik for bringing this up.

The way I see it is that a regional event has given growth to a regional network. Pure and simply DAPNet should be about that.

However, the same group has given support to a networking tool, DAP.com, that has included people from outside that region. DAP.com has always been an outreach tool for NEAPFD, now DAPNet.

I think the community that is represented by activity on DAP.com could represent a future manifestation of DAPNet, but is not necessarily the same as the active membership of the regional organization.

In the organizations that I serve on, we have members from outside the area of our influence. They support the effort, both emotionally and financially, but the mission is clearly local, or within the state of Vermont, so any involvement contrary to that would be unjustified. Also along those lines, voting power can only be exercised at the annual meeting, requiring physical presence, and again is not related to the substance of the operation of the org, but associated with director elections and bylaw adoption etc.

I see users of DAP.com supporting DAPNet because we administer this global networking tool. Of course people are free to use DAP.com without becoming DAPNet members. However, the global nature of DAP.com, although outside of our regional impact, will continue to be a valuable asset to the DAPNet membership.

If we make it clear that the basic mission of DAPNet is regional to the NE, and to support efforts such as NEAPFD within that region, it will only serve to attract supporters of this type of effort. The truth however is that the membership in DAPNet will primarily support ongoing administrative costs of managing the database, websites, newsletter, and outreach. The NEAPFD will in now way be able to be funded soley from those finances, and will always need to stand alone through gate fees and volunteer efforts of people within that region.

I think that since DAP.com is an asset of DAPNet, it only seems reasonable that there be some revenue stream from it, and that there be some benefit to DAPNet members such as free classifieds, but that may also be attractive to other users as a way to contribute to the ongoing costs of that resource.

There is some precedent in the organization that Lisa works with Northeast Organic Dairy Producers Alliance (NODPA), in that as they grew in membership and capability, there was interest in other regions to form ODPA’s, which now are linked together in some fashion, sharing the newsletter, and having a national “Voice” when they need it.

I think DAPNet should define our region of influence within the NE US and CA, also defining how our network will benefit members in our region, and out, through the tools and resources we intend to facilitate. NEAPFD should continue to be a focal point gathering for that membership, with “Discounted” attendance also being a perk of membership, but it shouldn’t be seen as the primary function of DAPNet.

This is a good topic that should probably be ironed out soon.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

S’ok we’re off now too.

[Carl Russell]

So while we’re tossing out these odd tips and tricks, here goes one more.

I learned this from Soren Erikson at a felling workshop back in the early 80’s.

For a really big tree, or any tree really, that is leaning back, after you finish your face cut, bore into the left side of the tree (facing toward the lay of the fall).

Set the thickness of your hinge and begin cutting toward the back of the tree. You will be cutting with the top of the bar, so as you move away from the hinge, your sawdust chips will fill the kerf and stay in there.

Amazingly, because you have taken wood that was solid and cut it into small pieces, you have added surface area, so the chips will actually take up more space now than when they were in there are part of the tree. Because of this, they will develop some upward pressure.

If for some reason the tree sets back before you get your wedge set, or if the wedge is spit out, then the chips will prevent the kerf from closing completely, leaving enough room to start a wedge again.

Once the tree is felled, you can see the chips expanding. Try it sometime.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Not really. It pretty much sounded as though he thought she was blind. Just told me what to do if there are more flare-ups of uveitis, but that only to relieve the pain from inflammation.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Vet came today, and said she basically can’t see. She has cataracts in both eyes, the right worse than the left. She has very limited forward sight out of her left eye.

Does this look like a horse that can’t see? This was work I did with her within the last month.

So now we begin the adventure to find out how much more work she has in her. Over all the nasty terrain I have driven her, even within the last 6 weeks, she has never stubbed, stumbled, or even missed a step.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Tristan got me thinking of a few more tricks. If the tree is tipped in the right direction, but hung in another tree, there are several things I do.

Sometimes just undercutting the hinge on one side or the other will allow the tree to swing or roll in that direction. The same action can be used to release the opposite side of the roll as well.

If the hinge is cut and the butt is still on the stump, I will place my face-cut wedge on the ground behind the stump. I place a wedge in the front cut and drive under the tree from front to back. This will cause the tree to slide across the stump, hopefully landing on the wedge, which hopefully acts as a ski and the tree slides down out of the crown it is hung in. You want to be stepping back out of the way in good order. Sometimes I will use this as a place to hitch on the team, as the butt will slide off the stump a lot easier then it will once it drops off into soft dirt, but often it is amazing what the horses cam move if they have it moving, and can keep it moving.

If you know the butt will be coming off the stump and there is a good chance for a hang-up, placing the face-cut wedge in a place where it can act as a ski will also help if you have to pull it down.

Sometimes you just can’t get the butt up out of soft ground, so I will cut it off just above the ground, driving a few wedges in to keep the saw from pinching, and to make sure that I cut all the way through. Then when I hook up, I place a ski in the direction of pull, pull the newly cut butt off of the stuck section onto the ski, and move out.

This can also be done in a little more exaggerated way by making a level cut a foot, or more off the ground, then an open-mouthed cut away from the direction of pull. The cuts should not be made all the way through, leaving hinge wood. This way when you pull on it, the cut will open up and the bottom block will fall over, giving a big advantage for starting the pull. This can also be done by driving a wedge into the back-cut and can be a way of taking the tree down a little bit more without hitching animals to it.
This method is more for mid-sized trees, as large diameter trees don’t fold that easy, AND you can be losing substantial volume.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jacki, I know those horses, and know a few who have had them on Free Lease before. If you want to give me a call, we can talk about it. 802-234-5524

Carl (Lisa’s Husband—-Tuli’s Dad)

[Carl Russell]

George, the section of log will roll a bit, but generally only enough to lift the butt. When the butt of the tree starts to move it will generally trig against the log section and the whole thing will skid along the ground. It really is just a mechanism to get a degree of vertical lift where the animals can’t deliver it.

As far as being too close to pulling down a tree, I used to feel as you do, but I found that a long hitch is actually more dangerous. Not so much from the tree itself, but from other factors like maintaining an appropriate angle of pull etc.

I also don’t just go for it. I usually will put a rolling hitch on the tree and try to roll it out of the tree it is lodged in with a few moderate and short even pulls. If that doesn’t work, I usually will give a few short pulls to see if I can get the tree to come down by itself.

If I have to pull the whole tree down, I survey the land and MAKE the best approach. Sometimes a trail to twitch a log out that has hit the ground is quite different than the trail needed to pull a tree down, and it may require some more work.

All of this work, pounding wedges, working a tree with the peavey, cutting extra trees, pulling down with the horses, may seem futile and frustrating, but in the long run it is all educational. Nothing like beating yourself silly to learn how to look at felling a tree to be successful.

This is one of my favorite subjects when talking about forestry and timber harvest. To be successful, forest improvement must also be functional. Sometimes there are trees that need to be cut first, so that others can be cut effectively. This is really important when working with animals. These decisions can affect the overall approach to the stand, but in the long-run it will be better.

It is important to think about wedging, jacking, pulling, etc., but also try to also see how the felling could have been done differently to change the outcome. There are always situations like the swamp and my white ash, but most of the time the choice of felling, whether in direction of fell, or in choice of which tree to cut first, or in which trees to cut in general, will make the biggest improvement.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Traveling Woodsman;22832 wrote:

….
So there it is, I say try out the jacks. I’m interested to hear about other people’s experiences with jacks.

I have used a hydraulic jack. A small bottle jack I bought from the parts store, similar to the one above. Mine is a bit smaller though.

I have mostly used it on take-downs of nuisance trees, but never thought to have one on the cart in the woods. May have to think about that some more. They do work well.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

One trick for pulling big tree down. As there is so much downward pressure, the butts are pretty hard to get moving, especially if they have come off the stump. I take a short section of log about 12-16″ in dia, and lay it near the butt. I put the choker as close to the ground as I can, then up over the section of log, and to the evener, or cart. This way when the horses pull, the chain actually lifts the butt up.

[Carl Russell]

George, really big trees are pretty hard to pull down with animals. I do it quite regularly with normal sized trees, but usually end up cutting down the trees that the big ones are held up in…… This is very UNSAFE, but I have found there are very few other ways to get them down.

If they just sit back I do as Mitch suggested, and spend a lot of time pounding. I spent 45 minutes one day driving wedges into a huge white ash so that it wouldn’t fall into a swamp where I would never have gotten to it.

If I can’t get them to move, and they have set back, I usually take the next est lay, and fall it it that direction, cut a lot of brush, and maybe a few trees I hadn’t planned to, and eventually skid them out of there.

It’s all a learning experience…. gotta love it. Playing it the woods with dangerous tools doing dangerous things….. and hopefully making some bucks too….. extended childhood.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I wear a forestry tool vest that I got from Ben Meadows http://www.benmeadows.com/SwedePro-Forestry-Tool-Vest_31228213/

I carry 2-4 wedges, small first aid kit with blood stoppers and mirror, lumber crayons, whistle, sharpened chains, file, scrench, rain shield for my hard hard, and sometimes a note book.

I get the wedges at my local saw shop…. they cost like $35, but they last a long time, and I can pound the bejesus out of them and they will not break or mushroom. (I have broken them in very cold temps)I find they are very much worth the expense. I hate the soft ones with the larger angle taper:(.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

George, with frozen wood, sometimes wedges can slip back, and therfore not be effective.

I spend the big money and get the Sandvik orange “unbreakable” wedges, as they have a very narrow taper and are not completely smooth, so they work in well,and don’t spit out.

Also try putting two wedges next to one another, and hitting one then the other. This way one wedge takes the pressure off the other, and you should be able to lift a pretty huge tree right back in the other direction. I use this method on all big trees.

On big trees, I also set my first wedge near the back by my trigger wood. The problem with this is that the wedge doesn’t give much lift, at least in proportion to the diameter of the tree, so I set my second wedge closer to the hinge.

This is a common problem with using the open faced cut on big timber, as the hinge is so close to the outer diameter of the tree, that the tree has a huge amount of leverage against the wedge. I discovered this years ago cutting pines the were running from 800-1500 bf per tree. I had a few set back on me, and with horses, or cattle as the case was for me, that can suck.

Try using two, or even more, wedges, and working them against each other…. it should help a lot, Carl

Oh yeah, and I use an 8# sledge hammer with the handle cut to 16″

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