[Carl Russell]

I know that Joel Salatin uses woodland pastures for his pigs. Primarily under oaks. Also Brown Boar Farm in Wells Vt has been raising their pigs in an oak forest.

I am not against the ecological foundation of feeding pigs, or even cattle on tree fruit or nuts. What I am against is the concept that it can be done in a “forest” setting. Just because there are trees doesn’t make it forestry. I take exception to the concept of “Agroforestry” purely because the agro part changes the ecosystem so significantly it is no longer a “forest”.

Be that as it may, I have considered planting Honey Locust on hedgerows for coppice fence posts, and leguminous feed. I also support the idea of putting pigs under fruit trees. I think that it could be managed as a wooded pasture.

The thing is that pigs do really well on grass as well. They are great for rooting under rotted and composting material as well. I think that the ideal would be a rotation of several different pasture types, based on season, including the nut grove, fruit orchard, compost piles, grassland, field crop clean-up, etc..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Brownie, and all the others who have been contributing, we really appreciate your support.

If you haven’t joined DAPNet yet, please consider doing so soon. The Spring/Summer DAPNet Newsletter will be coming out in July with good articles, contacts, and a center spread featuring the up-coming 2011 NEAPFD.

All donation and contributions are welcome and gratefully appreciated.

Thank you Carl

[Carl Russell]

My project is clearing forest. Donn was working to build some shaded pastures.

Being a forest ecologist I absolutely believe in utilizing our forests as multiple-use resources, as forest is the standard ecological community, at least in the NE, and any ag is based on processes that hold the forest at bay. Finding ways that tree growth can contribute to the sustainability of our farms is of significant importance.

However, I have a problem with “Agroforestry” in general as the two uses are not necessarily compatible. Livestock management usually places so much pressure on a site that the inherent ecology of the forest is compromised.

I realize that hogs have a natural tendency to utilize the forest for a lot of their habitat, and I am not apposed to seeing them in the forest in principle. I just think that the woodlot should be used like any other paddock in the rotational grazing system, so that there can be a use of the natural food-stocks without undue disturbance from the pigs.

Long term sustainability of the forest ecosystem depends on allowing the natural communities to maintain themselves. As long as we integrate livestock into that with compromising the ecological integrity, we will be successful.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Carl Russell;27446 wrote:

As they should be….. My cross lines are longer too…My hame rings are also smaller diameter ….1 1/4″ on drop lines…

Jen, I like your solution.

Carl

The cross checks on my lines buckle back by the britchen ring, and the rings on the drop lines are actually 1 1/2″.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

jac;27445 wrote:

…. BTW the old English team lines have much longer coupling lines with the buckles up over the horses butts…
John

As they should be….. My cross lines are longer too…My hame rings are also smaller diameter ….1 1/4″ on drop lines…

Jen, I like your solution.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Sounds like grass to me. My horses have shown similar since I turned them out…. although not as loose as you describe, just wet and green. I also see it more in one horse than the other. I think it has something to do with the amount of H2O this year. I only have them on grass at night, and let them have some hay in the barn during the days.

When they are just eating grass their manure can get pretty loose, which can contribute to some inflammation, which can create a bit of a chronic situation. Although there can be a problem “sandwiching” grass and hay, trapping gas, causing bloating and Cholic, some hay during periods when they are not on grass, provided they get adequate water, can help to slow down the digestion, and stiffen the bowels.

I also have seen the fly bites. Pretty typical site, as they can’t get the flies there very easily. That is another reason I only put my horses out at night, not many flies out then. (Also because I want them in to work with).

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I would say just feed the soil. Cut it and let it compost into the soil for you, or scratch up the sod, and plant what you wanted.

And frig, corn will grow now. We haven’t planted our yet, and I see no problems with that. You may not hit the hot early market, but you’ll get corn.

Nothing wrong with a learning curve…. just hard to swallow sometimes when you had other expectations.

Keep up the good work.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

So….. DAPNet is in the process of upgrading the v-Bulletin software that runs DAP.com. This is necessary as the current version is very much out of date. There will be a few new aspects to the upgraded version, but the basic forum will not change.

I mention this here as we will incur additional one-time costs to the normal maintenance fees. Please consider making a contribution to help us offset these expenses. Between the new software and the contracted IT fees DAPNet will have spent close to $1500.

If you have not joined DAPNet the organization, this would be a great way to contribute. As members of Draft Animal Power Network, your membership fees at least in part go to support the year-round expenses of managing this site.

If you want to contribute to the cost of DAP.com, please consider doing it in the form of a membership to DAPNet. Please feel free to contribute more than the prescibed membership fees if you have the desire. I have attached the membership info below, but you can follow this link to the DAPNet organization’s resource website to join on-line – http://www.draftanimalpowernetwork.org/membership.html

Thank you, Carl

Join the Draft Animal-Power Network!Annual Membership Fees

• ________ Individual $20
• ________ Family/Farm $30
• ________ Business Member $75 *
• ________ Founders Club $100*

* Business Members and Founders get a complementary listing in our Web Business Directory. About the Draft Animal-Power Network

The 2010 Northeast Animal-Power Field Days featured the launch of the new membership organization: The Draft Animal-Power Network (DAPNet).
The goal of this organization is to provide year-round educational and networking opportunities, highlighting ongoing efforts of people throughout the region who are educating, mentoring and building community around animal-power and renewable land use.

Annual membership fees will support the administrative costs, maintenance of the DAP Discussion Forum and DAPNet website, and the DAPNet print newsletter. Benefits of membership include:

1. Discounted gate fee to the Northeast Animal-Power Field Days and other future events,
2. Print Newsletter which will keep everyone connected, and will include resource contacts, articles of interest, calendar events, and more,
3. Access to the DAP.com Discussion Forum,
4. Free classifieds in the DAPNet newsletter and on the DAP Discussion Forum
5. Access to the DAPNet website, which will provide Calendar Events, Classifieds, Links to like minded organizations, a Web Business Directory, a Library of technical articles, a dynamic Photo Gallery, and more,
6. Enhanced connections within the broader community of interest, and
7. A voice in the organization: one member = one vote.

[Carl Russell]

Erik, I put together a similar slide show a few years ago for a presentation at Green Mountain College. I would be glad to send you a disc with the Powerpoint or the photo files. All I did was grab photos from DAP.com Gallery, and a few other places including NEAPFD files. I wasn’t too concerned about pic size and quality, and most of them came through with good resolution.

I can also send you a disc with all of the past NEAPFD pics too, if you would like.

Thanks for taking this on, Carl

p.s. Don’t hesitate to grab any photos that I have posted without asking me… they are all fair game as far as I am concerned.

[Carl Russell]

Again, you can do all the work you would ever want to do with horses without shoes. Don’t make the mistake that just because they are barefoot that they are not being tortured. I have seen many barefoot horses with little or no trimming, or poor trimming, and they were not in good shape to do any work. The working foot must be taken care of any way you choose, shod or not, but it needs to be done correctly.

The same is true for shod feet. You can seriously damage a horse’s feet with poor shoeing, but you can also give them significant advantage and protection if done correctly.

About the work, draft requires traction. The heavier the load the more traction required. Most field work can be done easily with barefoot horses, provided the feet are correctly trimmed. Many logging applications can also be done with well-trimmed bare feet.

The question is really not about the feet, but about your expectations for the work. Many field and gardening applications are really about light draft and maneuverability, so rarely is there a need to expect increased traction. if all you want to do is twitch a few logs and fuelwood trees with a horse, then by all means, no you don’t need shoes. But, if you are trying to maximize the power of your horses to perform heavy draft in constantly changing and challenging terrain, it will be difficult to do it without shoes.

At least I know I can not ask what I ask of my horses if they did not have shoes on.

This is not just a matter of whether or not their feet will slip, it is a matter of confidence. If their feet slip every time you ask them to pull a heavy load, they won’t try hard enough. I’m not saying that you would necessarily need them to work this hard, but if they are capable of it, then you can more reasonably consider doing this kind of work at an affordable rate.

I keep my horses shod year-round, because most of the work I do with them has to do with forestry and logging. I keep their feet trimmed and shod in a manner in which they stay sound, and it is a long way from being any kind of torture. They are safer when I ask them to lift heavy loads like that because they are less likely to over-extend a hind leg from a slip. They are less likely to slide on ice. They can hold back heavy loads, and steer the heavy sled on icy ground.

The horse’s foot is made to be bare, but don’t let that be your only gauge of how to work your horse.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Claddagh Farms;27261 wrote:

….It is great that we have Tony to help teach us.

And Elmin!!!

Welcome Neal. What a great story, full of accomplishments, and just as full with potential.

I have long admired Elmin Mitchel. I can tell you, I couldn’t live close enough to him, if I had the choice to move. What a great resource for you to have. Use it wisely….. they just don’t make’m like that anymore.

Hope to hear more from you, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Julie, sounds like you’re trying to cover a lot of bases. Now I wasn’t breast feeding, but I did do a lot of rearing as Lisa has always had a more steady income, and she would leave the farm regularly. When I had to choose between child care and working the horses, child care won out. Just sayin’….

I know it doesn’t get the work done, but that is the kind of distraction that I just wouldn’t bring to my working relationship with my animals.

That being said, I will harness my horses in the morning when I’m in the barn cleaning and feeding, and then leave them in the tie-stalls until I have time to work with them. Sometimes I end up unharnessing them at the end of the day without working them.

I think the immediacy of the transition you are trying to make adds too much stress to the equation. I never want to leave my horses in any way other than where they can stand for hours unattended. You never know what you may get involved in, especially with a youngster.

I have a lot of respect for you wanting to be a productive contributor beyond motherhood, but one way or the other you will be facing risk.

Just relax and do what you can do easily, safely, and enjoyably.

Maybe there is a neighbor or a homeschooler nearby who would like to watch you work your horse and run interference with the monitor while you unhitch and tie-off.:)

Carl

[Carl Russell]

A collar is a reasonable solution, but I am pretty sure that if Les suggested using neck collars instead of halters he would not have endorsed hitching them to anything but a hitch-rail while still hitched into equipment.

Facing into a sturdy hitch-rail with a collar is much different than trying to hitch a team on the cart to a tree beside a trail. If one horse is not hitched the other is at serious risk of injury if the unexpected occurs.

I know I already posted this, but the time it takes to unhitch horses, remove bridles, apply halters and tie each horse off individually is insignificant compared to the potential for a nasty pile up. This is especially in the context of working in the woods, expecting to take some time felling, etc.

If you are looking for a break while spreading manure, or discing the garden, then collars and a sturdy hitch-rail is appropriate, but I will still say that it takes all of five minutes to unhitch, unbridle, halter, and tie off.

I am skeptical of any attempt to flirt with the safety of the horses as an excuse to save some time and effort on the part of the teamster.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

If there is a funder who has offered funds for this purpose, I think it makes sense. Otherwise, I would be hesitant. This could be quite a process, requiring someone to put in a lot of time evaluating applicants, etc.

If this is a serious consideration, I would suggest that folks like Green Horns, or Small Farms Conservancy, or perhaps some businesses be contacted to see if they would contribute to such a fund. It will be a triple whammy, getting us funds, giving us mileage with the beginners, and highlighting our relationships with other groups and businesses.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

So a few thoughts about these last few comments.

Just let me say that I don’t think the job of a farmer is to convert solar energy into food. I think our job is to protect the ecological integrity of the biological systems that we interact with while we procure a livelihood from our environment. That said, I think that the ideal to work toward is one in which we employ as many natural processes as possible, as the entropy inherent in these systems is all accounted for by other energy consuming organisms in those biological communities.

Although Methane has real value for heat, etc., there are a few more problems other than just the inefficiencies. In real terms of biological energy, manure has other values, that in my mind, trump anything derived from digesting it into energy components.

First the infrastructure investment like so many other alternatives is a big drawback, as it can only be used for that purpose, locking into perpetuity that method of manure management. Then there are decisions of scale to provide enough manure to keep the system running as efficient as possible. There are also other infrastructure investments such as barns and manure handling systems, which also contribute to increasing scale.

Second, the biological relationships between soil bacteria and other organisms, and the plants, and the way those plants deliver nutrients to the animals raised on that soil go far beyond measure. These relationships are in place without any investment from the farmer. Utilizing the animals to disperse the manure while at the same time harvesting the feed in a way that best supports regrowth saves all of those infrastructure investments that go along with Methane digesting and manure management. This scenario is independent of scale, working with 1 cow – 1000.

The trap of considering these natural resources as a supply for conventional energy is seductive. Biomass energy is the same. The energy that goes into harvesting and processing, the cost of machinery and infrastructure, and the inherent inefficiencies just make these systems short-term at best.

Looking at Erik’s first post about using a treadmill with horses, pumping water into an elevated cistern would be a very efficient system, especially if it uses a direct-drive pump.

Thanks for posting about the ram pumps. I was just at the hardware store looking for components to build one for my own farm.

I also just outfitted one of my fields with a water system based on a 12’x4″ PVC set in the brook with a reduction to 1/2″ black plastic pipeline running through the field. It doesn’t have much pressure but it fills the water tank. This will significantly improve the effectiveness of the grazing, by providing water without having to keep giving them access to a limited section of the brook, keeping them out of the water, and allowing me to make smaller paddocks and moving them more often, AND I won’t need to transport water as an alternative.

Carl

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