[Carl Russell]

Tom, first let me say that I agree there are good skidder operators and bad horse loggers. The operator does make a huge difference.

Your comments however point out the very crux of the issue. The real difference comes down to the forestry.

If the comparison is about felling technique, ground disturbance, and the amount of wood moved to the landing, I agree, the differences will come down to the skill and commitment of the operators. In these comparisons that Ethan is looking for, there is an acceptance of the way that logging is done with machines. If we let skidders work to their greatest advantage, driving to/or near the stump, pulling tree length from group selection, in b-line cuts, under guidance from foresters who see their job as marketing agent with an eye toward the future of the forested asset, then friggin-A there is no way that any animal operation will even come close.

However if the forester sees access as an investment in long-term multiple-use infrastructure, manages for crop trees through single tree selection, and protects ecological factors through high residual stocking (short harvesting intervals), then the story shifts. If the skid distance is shortened, marking done to protect residuals, off trail impact minimized, and surgical removal required, then skidder operators will have to pull 150′ of cable to the stump, pull short-wood, and take off their chains to skid 500-1000 feet, their costs will sky-rocket. However, the animal operator will find this situation highly favorable.

This is not to say that we can’t get reasonable forestry done using skidders. I manage several operations every year with skidder operators, but I find I need to make allowances for the way they need to operate.

However, if the comparison is made between a good horse-logger with an insightful forester against any mechanical operation there will be no comparison in the application of good forestry. That comes from 25 years of providing forest management and harvesting with draft animals.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

This one shows stump to landing, highlighting some of the attributes of the Barden Cart.

[video=youtube_share;eko8TVTAKVg]http://youtu.be/eko8TVTAKVg[/video]

[Carl Russell]

Here’s a little more….[video=youtube_share;zUOMtZSqb74]http://youtu.be/zUOMtZSqb74[/video]

[Carl Russell]

Sorry about this you guys. I’ll send you Ed’s number.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

That’s cool. You probably will want to continue to add to this list as each registrant will get a new random question, and the bots can rip through this short list pretty quickly. Also yes/no questions have too few variables. Stick to questions such as your others, and you will probably have better success.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Jen Judkins 28211 wrote:

Nope not there. You must have more priviledges than me or something. Sorry. J

You have all the same credentials. Perhaps you need to restart your computer, or refresh when you’re on the Admin page.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@karl t pfister 28181 wrote:

Carl I appreciate the photo and your explanation .When I use a White Horse cart I can get the whole picture to look similar ,and it gives one an appreciation for the D-ring design.
What I was trying to say is that the height of some carts puts the evener so low that it is difficult to get ones knee and thigh behind it , and get it singing tight . Or perhaps it is a function of age and things not bending as they once did!!
I learned from Ken Demers,his theory was its hard to get the d-ring harness too tight,but do yourself a favor and get it tight enough so the yoke doesn’t fall off the pole , horses are forgiving and the more they feel you helping them the more they try and help you. Happy trails ! karl

I was just meaning that the lower the evener the less power needed, and using the side of the shin/calf instead of the thigh can work just as easily.

Your point about tightness is absolutely correct. It DOESN’T need to be “singing tight”. Especially if everything is adjusted correctly, it only need to be tight enough to suspend the pole from the jack saddle. It shouldn’t require so much tension as to go beyond reason. If it does, I suspect something else need to be adjusted, or modified.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Jen Judkins 28199 wrote:

I can’t find that. Looked hard too. 🙁

Left hand sidebar. 4th one down. Advertising. Open the drop-down. Manage Ads, or Add New Ad.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Ethan, I also think that the most important comparison is the difference between the type of forestry that MUST be practiced to facilitate mechanization vs. the type of forestry that CAN be practiced using draft animal power. There are so many culturally accepted assumptions about the way that logging MUST be done that are all based on the economic realities of machines, that forestry in practice reflects this narrow interpretation. With draft animals we can blow this out of the water, but we need to break down the reflex to out-compete machines at their own game. Thank you for your youthful enthusiasm. I am pleased to think about where you are headed.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jen, in Admin you will find Advertising, and under that you will find access to the header spaces where you can add the HTML.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Geoff, the current Human Verification is Image verification, which is actually about as tough as you can get. There is probably some spam program out there that can get a sampling of those verification images from across the spectrum of v-Bulletin sites. Another option is Question and Answer Verification, that requires/allows you to create a series of questions specific to our genre, or whatever, so that there is less likelihood for the bots to get consistent answers.

In Admin, under Settings, you will find the Human Verification Manager.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@karl t pfister 28164 wrote:

Is another variable of the evener height, the “ease” of pushing with one’s thigh or as some carts end up with the evener at shin height.

No actually Karl, the lower the evener, the easier it should be to hook into the traces.

This is because with the low evener, the arms of the triangle (Evener (a), Rear trace, D-Ring (b), Front side strap, Neck yoke (c)) are hanging at a sharper angle, so that the hitching process of extending the hypotenuse is not a straight line pull. By stretching the hypotenuse with the triangle hanging from the D-ring, and anchored at the evener, the front end of the pole is lifted.

The higher the evener, the closer it gets to a straight-line pull with very little give.

This is why if a certain pole height is desired, then the front side strap and rear trace (actually at the heel chains) need to be as short as reasonably possible. This means that the pole needs to be short, and the length on the pole dedicated to the neck yoke needs to be short too. The longer the arms of the triangle, the more straight-line the pull becomes as the pole is raised.

Also the more straight-line the pull is the less natural lift there will be on the pole, so the hitch needs to be very tight, hence the need to tighten the hitch with the side strap after the traces are hitched.

Here is a picture of my log cart. The neck yoke is positioned directly under the collar, the point of the pole in under their noses, and it is hitched on one heel link. The front of the pole is 30″ off of the ground, and you can see the whole thing suspended from the D-ring. The triangle represented there still hangs at a reasonable angle, so compressing the evener to hitch and unhitch still has a fair amount of natural give.

[Carl Russell]

Another factor that could be affecting the amount of pressure people feel they need to apply to the traces in order to get adequate suspension is the height of the eveners. I am thinking specifically about logging arches, where the emphasis has been on achieving very high hitch points to get logs off of the ground. In those cases, there is very little room left for the triangular suspension between evener and neck yoke, because the evener, neck yoke and pole are already near D-ring height. In these cases, teamster will almost certainly NEED to use the FSS method to get the extra tension needed to get the weight off of the collar and onto the jack saddle.

Another point to consider when evaluating the value of those high hitch carts.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I agree with your sentiment, and applaud you for your insight.

I would caution you against thinking in terms of making woodlands “profitable” though, as this usually means that one needs to accept the “expenses” that go along with owning land as important and necessary. For example, if the objective is to see woodland “profitable” then whatever the use, then the value of the outcome will be measured in whether or not the enterprise covers the expenses.

I agree that finding many ways to harvest value from the land allows landowners more ways to enjoy their land, and reduces the need for any one of those uses to be the heavy lifter. Moreover, I really feel that if the objectives are biological diversity and ecological integrity, then finding ways to interact with the land so that those features are protected should be the measure of success.

Obviously, the more money we can make from our land, the easier it is to afford, but if we are truly going to reverse the trend that sucks life out of the earth in the name of economics, then we need to make a commitment to restoring the health of our forests, and in many cases that means the opposite of “profit”.

I know that it can be hard to consider to start blowing that horn as one is considering striking out on a path into a career in forestry, especially as the rest of the economy is trying to convince you that you need to be able to provide services to people so that they can make “profit” from their land. Believe me, I know. However, I found that there were folks who wanted to hear the convictions of a young environmentalist, and with choices that have kept my overall financial obligations low, including the exclusive use of animal power in my personal and professional life, I have found enough truly committed landowners who are willing to make the kinds of investment in their land that it deserves.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

This is also the kind of project I think we should assign to our administrator. Jean could be working with David to find out how many people, and what they each should be expected to accomplish.

Carl

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