[Carl Russell]

Try this….. here is the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eZSZS-YnbM

Carl

[Carl Russell]

You tube was giving me some problems yesterday when I uploaded it, but it seems to work fine for me from DAP.com. Sometimes these issues come down to Web Navigators. I”m having good luck with Firefox….. also sometimes I find restarting the computer turns out to be a simple solution….
Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Livewater Farm 30273 wrote:

carl for some reason tje video link does not come show up on my page when I open your thread
Bill

on DAP.com?? or on You-tube?

[Carl Russell]

@jac 30268 wrote:

Great video there Carl. thanks for posting that .. I watched it twice but im damned if i can figure out what mechanics are comming in to play to make that pole float ??? .. think I’ll just have to book a plane over to Burlington airport an head out to see for myself haha ..
John

D-ring harness!!!:cool: Tension between the neck yoke and evener transfers the pole weight to the jack saddle….

Please come visit though, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is a powerpoint presentation about this operation….. you all know pretty much everything from this thread, but I thought you would like to view this….

Slide timings seem to be off as a result of saving to you-tube….. Pausing and dragging the red button along the time line will give you manual control so that you can have the time to read the info….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO3sQLGv2dA

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I remember from training a hunting dog, the best way to get a gun-shy dog is to create a lot of pomp and formality around the exposure. Focusing on the gun sets up body language that the dog picks up on, and then every time the gun comes out he/she will have a preconception about the importance of the gun as apposed to everything else.

The chaps, or anything else, should be used to facilitate the development of communication. The focus should be on the horse, not on the chaps. If every time there is a desensitizing exercise the horse picks up on the changed focus and behavior of the teamster, then they will learn to have a heightened alertness.

Confidence, focused intention on the horse, disregard for the object, and reinforcement of established communication are the basis for my perspective on “desensitizing”.

The only insight I would add to your assumption about “making” the horse stand is that if you want the horse to feel reward when standing, then by using standing as pressure will serve to confuse him. They instinctively feel comfort when standing. They also instinctively feel discomfort when made to move. I really can’t see that there is much effective pressure in trying to make them stand, when to them it is a way to not do anything else. I have had more success with having pressure represent action, and reward represent no action.

The exercise I described of moving them before they move on their own, teaches them that whoa means stand and relax…. not just stop. I have written this in other threads… I think that separating the action of stopping from action of standing is also very confusing for the horse. I use one command, whoa… that means stand…. to stand they must stop, but there are not two intentions…. much easier for them to understand.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I am not that far off on the desensitizing….. I just don’t think that the problem is with the “chaps”, more with the way you approached the horse, or failed to read his response.

It’s not that I just throw stuff on my horse and have them accept it. I approach them with it, read them, let them adjust, approach some more, indicate I am going to put it on them, etc. When they show me they know what I am going to do, and have accepted it, I place it on them…. chaps, or screaming cat…. the item does not matter, what matters is that I have shown them that I have intention, I am willing to let them understand the situation that I am creating, but that I WILL complete my asserted task.

I have done this enough to know that it really doesn’t matter how many times you approach the animal with the item, as much as it matters that there is effective communication between you two. You make your intentions clear, the horse can reject them if he wants, but the reward only comes when the animal stands quietly and accepts your initiative. This can take several times, months, or it may only take once, depending on the animal and the depth of the communication relationship. The reward is that I release them from my intention….and I do that when they are standing quietly with the item on them.

The fundamentals of my interaction with horses is this process over and over…. pressure – release…. expectation – reward, halters, hoes, harnesses, school buses, anything that could affect them is external….. the situation is dealt with the same way every time….. respond calmly, respond attentively, respond completely, or I apply pressure until you do, then I reward through release.

Yes I use this communication to expose my animals to stimuli, I use it to guide them past distractions, but I don’t believe that I need to do that for every possible item or stimuli. That is what I mean about not following desensitizing. I require that my horses look to me for guidance when threatened, by developing a steadfast communication with them, so that if they associate me with a situation that is uncomfortable for them, then they will actually desire the guidance of pressure and release to validate an acceptable response.

As Scott says, I too do no believe that horses are ever bomb proof. Therefore I always try to maintain a superior awareness and understanding of the situations we find ourselves in….. that is superior to them… like a parent, or leader. It is exhausting, and I am not perfect. I have had my share of surprises too.

As far as the standing to be hitched….. for me it doesn’t come down to actually standing, although that is part of it, it comes down to responding appropriately to the command to Whoa. If I have a horse that won’t stand, I am not trying to see how long I can make them stand, I am trying to get the horse to move based on my commands, not on his initiative.

I will drive, whoa, watch the response… if he/she gives me three seconds and then moves, I drive, whoa, 1..2..get-up… drive, whoa….1..2…get-up….drive, whoa, 1..2…3…4…get-up. Never let the horse stop or start without my guidance. Letting the horse stand until they stop moving only reinforces for them that I am disinterested in what they are doing, and if it takes them five minutes to calm down, I have let it be their initiative to calm down, not my leadership.

When I get a horse so that they stop and move on my command, then I start playing with how much time they will stand for me. In this way when they stop and stand on my command, the relaxation they feel upon standing is directly presented by me…..I gave that to them…it is a reward from me….. if they calm down on their own, in the absence of my attention, I don’t get the credit for it.

When I see that they are associating the reward of standing with my command and guidance then I will start to expose them to other stimuli like hooking to logs etc. By that time they already understand that when I ask them to stand they get a reward, so stand is not a task that I am attempting to get them to do, but a reward that they appreciate.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Geoff……. not to get too complicated, but the category heading can be set to link directly to the google map…… if that seems appropriate.

Thanks again, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Geoff, can we get a new forum category with a link to the map??

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

George, I will just throw out a few comments.

I offer these comments hesitantly as I have a lot of respect for the way you work with your horses, and I almost didn’t because I realize that my perspective is based on my experiences, and I don’t want to assume or project my rational into your thought process.

Make of them what you will.:)

On the safety thread I was thinking of this very issue. Whether or not the cell phone works is not as important as whether you have a safe working relationship with your horses.

I am not a follower of desensitizing. I think it gives a false sense of security. I also think it allows the teamster to focus on items instead of situations and interactions.

I think you are onto something when you mention about the cars etc., and you being off your game. When I read your first post, the thing that stood out to me was that you admitted working the horse while he behaved in a way that is usually unacceptable to you, fidgety, not standing still while being hitched.

I can share your distraction working in front of people. For years I would feel so self conscious when I was being observed that I would get distracted from what I was supposed to be doing with the horse. He may have come to work a little on edge, but by allowing him to keep it up, you basically softened your leadership, which I believe was the basis for the episode.

I know it is very hard to do when we only have a short amount of time to accomplish a task at hand (especially if the project is in full public view, and we want to look like we have our shit together), but I know from experience that when you compromise your standard expectations, you are not helping yourself, nor the horse.

By this I mean that it takes a lot of discipline to actually accept that the work is less important than having the horse stand still before he is hitched. It can be the hardest thing to do to leave the work until the behavior is acceptable, but in the long run it will make a huge difference.

When asked how I hitch a horse that won’t stand still, I say I don’t hitch a horse until it stands still.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks folks…… it’s like I’ve entered an alternate universe…. in this one I don’t have a shadow…

I’ve been through this before, and new possibilities will present themselves.

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Mark, I would be inclined to drill down through the runner with 3/4″ threaded rod, then counter sink the shoe about 3″ if you are using 4×4 shoes. I think that 3″ runners would be wide enough to accommodate a 1″ dowel, but I would be worried that the dowel will loosen over time, whereas you can tighten the threaded rod from the top of the runner if needed.

You can see the through-bolts in this Berry Brook scoot. When the shoes wear down to the nuts, then it is time to replace them…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Brad, even if I didn’t have the chance to observe you working with Bob, I would still want to make this comment.

I often hear folks make statements that seem to reflect the progress that their horse has made, as if time and patiences is all that is necessary for the animal to adjust his attitude.

Bob is a fast horse. Fast in action, but also fast in his brain. He requires a handler that is working at that speed or faster, in the brain. I know for a fact that you have made a lot of advancement in that area. I would assert that the real difference is in the working relationship. You are catching on to the signals that you need to use to work with Bob, and you are not only ahead of him, but your consistency has improved.

Just my opinion. I know the horse can make headway, but it is too simple and probably inaccurate to concentrate on the progress te horse has made without taking measure of your own participation……and I mean more than a bit change.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’m with Kevin on this…. I have charged $50/hr for draft horse teamster training when folks come here…. I can see where in the scheme of things while working at her farm you could work out a deal with her, but education is a valuable product…… just think about how much yours has cost you. It is nice to be able to share and help folks, but we also need to think about the community at large. If we undersell ourselves then we under sell the entire community of serious draft animal practitioners. People interested in learning from us should not be allowed to think that this is just a fun walk in the park, and sometimes it really comes down money talks.

And Tom don’t “quit” your consulting. Just because you log with animals doesn’t mean you can’t sell your services as a forester….. you may need to stop working for Bay State, but certainly the professional income will be an advantage to your overall business plan.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I hear ya Mitch….. but I purposely bough an old machine with little frills. It has a manual tilt blade, and the winch is junk so I probably won’t be able to use it to do much logging. I didn’t want to pay a lot, so I wouldn’t be compelled to make it pay for itself….. In 2 weeks I have done enough trail work to pay off what I paid for it, so it can sit and watch me log with the horses most of the time…….. The truth is I may end up pushing up the log pile from time to time though, and I do plan on having it on the job to dress up trails as I work, but there is no threat of me starting to log with machinery any time soon.

Carl

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