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@Baystatetom 32277 wrote:
So the advantage is a increased payload for longer hauls and the pole gives the ability to hold back the load, Right? A go devil would be more for twitching. This is all very interesting to me, as everybody says oxen are stronger (not sure I buy that) and slower. The the key to my efficiency in the woods would be to take as much per trip as possible. I always heard from the old loggers “go light go often”. Carl you have worked in the woods with both oxen and horses does that hold true for both?
~TomGo light and go often for sure, but there really isn’t such a thiing as often with oxen…… steers yes, but I found oxen to go the same speed empty as loaded, so I liked to keep them loaded.
Bobsled and oxen is a great combination…In fact oxen and logs are a great combination. I logged exclusively with oxen for 10 years and loved it. Big Holsteins, and handy as hell. Moved a lot of wood on the sled with them.
What I said about working horses in the woods should have been about working draft animals… I used all of my equipment with horses or oxen, including a bunk-cart (single bunk on wheels).
Carl
…. think the bobsled would be better suited to the job. The added maneuverability of the bob would also be a plus.
It isn’t about skidding logs with horses, it’s about working horses in the woods. This requires the right tool for the right job, an arsenal of equipment with varying application.
And to answer Tom, the go-devil usually doesn’t have a pole, and we are talking about several hundred bf of logs over long distances.
…..
- He asked if I prefer full or half moccasin runners. He suggested half moccasins as he felt they held better on side hills. Can anyone explain the difference between the two and a suggestion about which they prefer?
- Instead of having a hook on the roll to which I attach my evener, I think I would prefer a ring that I can hook onto with a grab/swivel that I use for ground skidding. That way I can unhook from the sled and go to ground skidding without having to attach a grab/swivel. Any thoughts on this modification and its advantages/disadvantages?
I have always had full moccasin runners……?????
- Carl, you mentioned some changes that Les Barden was making to the top bunk that would facilitate easier chaining. Could those modifications be incorporated into a traditional bobsled?
- How about carrying your gear on a bobsled? One of the things I miss about my logging arch when using the scoot is that my arch has a place for all my gear (saw, chains, peavey, tools, places to hang chaps extra coat etc.). When using the arch, all of this stuff is easily accessible and doesn’t have to be moved to when skidding logs. Not so with the scoot. I have devised someways for stowing gear, but there is still a lot of shifting stuff around. Any innovative suggestions to tackle this problem with a bob?
I believe that the way that I chain logs on my sled is by far the most effective manner. I only mentioned Les’ ideas because in the design he is considering they may work….
I leave my clevis and swivel on the evener and just slip the evener over the hook on the roll. The hook should be on a steel strap that wraps around the roll and comes back under the pole, otherwise on a hard pull the horses will turn the roll, and break the pole right off….
Also, bridle chains should be attached to the roll…
Stake pocket on the end of the bunk hold it together, and provide an additional place to attach hooks, chains, etc.
A steel strap shaped to hold the peavey. I use an old trace bolted to the bunk t hold my chain-binder. A pin, or in my case a u-bolt or staple to secure a central hitch-point for load chains.
I find ways to carry all my tools by hanging them on the peavey. I made a small plywood box with a fitted lid years ago, that would fit saw, tools etc, and chained it to the sled, but I found I didn’t like leaving my tools in the woods. I find ways to carry the tools back out with me on top of the logs.
Carl
So I observed another phenomenon in some vintage photos from Maine. http://www.vintagemaineimages.com/bin/Detail?ln=13883
This picture says it is from 1895 logging in Maine. It shows a Side-backer style, but the side strap is broken by a ring, making front and rear side straps, while the traces are on solid piece.
This has no date, but shows the same thing…
This is one missing link for me…. in some cases we have traces separated by a D-ring, and in some other cases now we see side straps separated with a round ring. It seems that these innovations were applied to simplify repair, and probably save on leather. With these two options available it seems like it wouldn’t require much to inadvertently come across a decision that would combine both.
Still no back pad…it seems pole weight is not a very big deal in the scheme of things.
Nice load.
Carl
Andy, your comment about the twisted breeching strap makes me want to clarify that only front and rear traces are stitched to the D-ring. The rear side-strap (breeching), belly band, back-pad strap, and front side strap are all just looped on.
I found one of the rings with the through bolt…. You should be able to see a bend where the ring meets the squared loop so that the rear trace and breeching strap are not in the same plane. The Through-bolt is where the rear trace attaches, and the breeching strap attaches to the square loop.
These babies are actually hand-made, which may add some more confusion to dating this innovation….. If this is the earliest style, they may have been individually made by blacksmiths for local harness makers….
I also got thinking about these hand made D-rings considering that in all of the New England pictures I’ve looked through, the ones from VT, NH, ME are more likely to have the D-ring (at least in the traces), than any of the set-ups from Boston, NYC, or other urban settings.
I’m beginning to think that this may have been a real hill-country, hand-made, innovation propagated within the circles of interstate commerce and interaction between blacksmiths, harness makers, and horsemen. This may be a partial explanation for why we see it in use, but not in the Harness Review, nor in catalogs, nor in the patent office. This may also explain why Les Barden didn’t see them in a commercial setting until 1930’s. (Of course this is all conjecture…… just my mind working over the variables).
Carl
I thought it would be good to post a few pics of the three forms of D-rings that I consider to be within the defined area of research that I am looking for. As we can see from many pictures the D-ring seems to have been manufactured into traces as early as 1890’s. However it still remains a mystery if the original manufacturers actually intended it to be used within a harnessing system such as we know it today, including front and rear traces, front and rear side straps, back pad/saddle, and belly band.
This first one is what I consider to be the early form of the “modern” D-ring. This is an example of what I see in the harness in the Bellows Falls VT 1907 photo, as well as the one from Woodstock 1890. As I pointed out to Mark, I have no actual information to back this up, but my feeling has always been that this was the earliest rendition, leading to the others later. Maybe we will find out about this at some point. In this picyutre you can see front and rear trace attached with clips, and the loop for attaching the rear side strap is empty.
I took this picture in the dark of my barn, so upon reflection it isn’t the style I thought, but what I thought I was capturing was a complete ring with a through-bolt for the rear trace. I am sure I have one like that and will get it.
This is the style I use currently. A brass D-ring (about 3/8″ dia stock) with a through-bolt for the rear trace, and an attachment for the rear side-strap. As you can see, because of the converging angles and related stresses that Andy has described, the ends of the straps and traces take some abuse. The belly strap is not included in this picture, but you can see that the ring can get pretty full of leather.
Carl
So I got driven in today by some rain so I surfed that Vermont Historical Photo site……..because I just haven’t found enough answers to satisfy myself.
What I found is that the D-ring in the modern form was probably quite common as early as 1890, and certainly by 1900, throughout Vermont. It is entirely likely that the harness in Mitch’s photo is actually a round D. I also found that the square D’s were nearly as common….. These appraisals are entirely anecdotal from flipping through pics.
It is kind of interesting to note that the square D’s seem to be commonly used in quarries, like the pics from Concord, NH, I found several examples from Barre, VT.
This first pic states that it is from a Brickyard in Woodstock, VT circa 1880. This date I think is based on the fact that the yard operated between 1870 and 1890. It certainly appears to be fairly rustic….. vertical board roof. I used the zoom on the site to make sure that these are in fact round (apparently forged) D-rings.
This next picture actually states the exact date, 1-08-1907, in West Failee, VT, Fraves Hodges with the Standard Oil Co. delivery sled. This is by far the best example of fitted D-ring harnesses that I have come across from that time period.
I just had to post this pic of these brothers with some good loads of logs. Joe & Fred Winslow Berlin, VT circa 1909. Combination D-ring/Side-backer with no back pads. Change is hard….. seems like possibly the traces with D’s in them were more favorable, as if they bought them because they had no other choice, but still didn’t put them to their fullest use……
Again with the back pads on the lead team, and not on the wheelers????? This is from Barnet, VT circa 1880.
So I guess I may not have looked far enough into the earlier dates at the patent office.
Carl
Andy, I was thinking the same thing. Les has told me that nobody “taught” him how to adjust the D-ring harness, and he attributes his own education and intelligence in his own “figuring it out”. He does not however take any credit for this “ah-ha” as he assumes like the rest of us that the saddle feature is part of the original design.
However I am not convinced, as the patent from Louisiana shows that folks were looking for ways to connect the different strap without any particular import expressed to bearing pole weight, or that weight bearing was even related to the design of saddles.
Also it is clear from several patents for front traces and short tugs that the broken trace was not exclusively a “Swedish import”.
The fact that this square D is patented, it seems likely that the design was sold to harness makers and that it had the potential of becoming widespread. I don’t have any questions that the square D could have been as wide spread, especially as it is evident in Concord NH in 1908, and I still say that it is a square D in Mitch’s photo. Furthermore there is very little resemblance in Mitch’s photo to the Swedish harness, as the breeching, side straps, and traces are all of similar design and manufacture of other commonly worn harnesses of the time.
I am not that clear on how the front side straps are connected to the yoke on the team at the potato day. I can see what looks like a front side strap, and I can see what looks like the end of a jockey yoke, but it doesn’t look to me like they actually connect. It is hard to tell from this angle if there is weight on the saddles, or if it is just well fit horses and a snug harness.
There were already large distribution companies, such as Sears Roebuck, and they were shipping their harnesses and hardware all over the country by rail. Any person could have traveled into or out of the area with something similar. I have not seen anything that makes me think that the D-ring, nor the front side-strap for that matter sprung out of northern Maine. As the photo from Bellows Falls shows that as early as 1907 the round D-ring was in use specifically as a what appears to be a modification of the side-backer.
Here is the full pic of the Betsy Ross horses, and they are apparently not on the tracks. They also are in great shape and have reasonably nice harness on, with private business initials. There is also pipe laying on the sidewalk right beside them, which may have as much connection as the trolley tracks. I think that as loose as the breeching is, it is quite clear that the breeching in combination with the hame chains allows for stopping and backing.
Carl
