[Carl Russell]

My feedback is that I would consider making a small tray-like tool box. I have made scabbards on my logging conveyances before, and I have not found that drawing the saw out is an easy maneuver. The saw chain will invariably get snagged etc. It certainly is a good way to carry a saw into the woods, but getting on and off, felling, delimbing, and bucking logs I want a secure AND easy way to keep my saw accessible.

I have found that a tray-like tool box, with 4″ high sides affords me enough room for both saw and gas/oil containers. The saw is secure (I go over some pretty crazy terrain and have never lost the saw) and when I stop and want to use the saw, it is right there in front of me with the handle easy to grab, and nothing the restrict the bar……

Just a thought.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Mark Cowdrey 32921 wrote:

Could it be as simple as fidd-le? Fairly similar shape. Fairly common instrument back in the day.
Mark

Here are some old “Fidd” hooks. Notice the one on the left has a peen for striking with a hammer. These certainly do have long “necks” like fiddles…..

I decided to look this up……. Fiddle also has an alternative meaning….”nautical, a small guardrail on top of a table or stove on a ship, used to prevent things from sliding off”

As these hooks are made to hold logs on a load… to keep them from rolling, or sliding off, I can see the root….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@brigle 32850 wrote:

Where is this film you are talking about ?

Sorry your question got sidelined……. here is the link to the info about the film

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1480255348/the-farmer-and-the-horse

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@brigle 32850 wrote:

Where is this film you are talking about ?

Sorry your question got sidelined… here is the link

Farmer and the Horse; by Jared Flesher

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Livewater Farm 32879 wrote:

those long grab hooks were known as fidd hooks among the old loggers I worked with
Bill

Yep….. I never refer to them as such because most people don’t know that word……. I never understood the root of that name…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 32892 wrote:

What about getting your bottom deck loaded with your two chains and then moving to another load of logs for your top? Also, are you loading double, uncut logs on your bobsled? How long do you go? I have put some 20 footers on my scoot, but it doesn’t work very well. Also, do you need to be relatively consistent with the length of logs against your bunk, the first tier so to speak? I imagine the top deck doesn’t matter so much?

George

Certainly you could move the bobsled partially loaded, but I generally don’t. I like having one area with lots of logs to load. This kind of goes back to the planning. Many folks mention, as you did in a previous post, the time required for things like hitching and unhitching. This time really is insignificant IF you find ways to maximize the working power of the horses. Of course there could be some areas where you have a high bank, which could make loading the top tier much easier, so you might load and chain the bunk logs, then move down the trail, and load up the top….. I could see that, but in general, I try to pull as much per hitch into my brow…. sometimes tree length, then cut to log length before loading. To do this I am twitching with the team. I find when I make the horses work harder, I have more time for thought/planning, and my labor.

I have loaded logs as long a 50′ on a bobsled. In another post I attached a pic with my cattle with 34′ cabin logs on the sled. The problem with long logs is that they can drag on humps, somewhat defeating the purpose of getting them up on the bunk, especially since the friction is now located way back behind the horses…… The bigger problem can be on ice when the logs drag over a hump they can lift the sled and over-run bridle chains……

I typically load 16-20′ lengths of fuelwood. The main thing to remember is to put the longest logs on the bunk, as upper log’s ends will drag, and can work themselves backward and off the load….. I also like to put the larger logs on the bunk, and smaller above… for obvious reasons. The straighter logs on the bunk too…

Every situation has its variabilities….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

….., how many times do the chains overlap?

Once….. it is not a half hitch, just one portion of chain passing over the other…… one goes up and over the first log, one goes under….. Imagine that the bunk is an additional log in the weave…… the chain goes around the bunk, overlaps, then goes around the first log, etc. If the chains don’t overlap, the bunk and first log will be in the same loop which will be too loose.

…. I have found that a little more time invested up front in the layout pays dividends later when its time for loading

Amen to that….

….Any disadvantage to having a longer grab/lever (i.e. 18″)? Is there such as thing as too tight (I am thinking of tripping off the grab once on the landing)?

The “handle” shouldn’t be too long, or it may get in the way….. drag on the ground etc. I have a few grab that are quite long though…. I suppose it’s like peavey handles, you develop a preference…. You will not be able to make it too tight, the logs always move and loosen the hitch…. you will want to stop soon after starting the load to double-check the hitch….. The logs slide back on the bunk cinchng the chains up a bit too, so invariably the hooks need to be pounded off at the landing… which is another design featue for your grabs….. they should have a broader nose, or butt to the handle, where you can fell a hammer blow.

As an aside, that seems like good bobsled load of spruce in the video for bare-ground

450bf red spruce on bare ground going downhill in August 80º +, moving 4-5 loads in a day, so we were pacing ourselves….

….. interestingly my horses seems to work as hard with 450 feet of small logs on the scoot as they do with 650 feet of large, relatively un-tapered logs. My imagination? In the circa-1900 logging book I posted awhile back, bobsled loads averaged 800-1000 feet. I imagine that has a lot to do with log quality.

Hard to know what you are imagining:p….. definitely more bark and slab wood per board foot on smaller logs…..

On snow I regularly move loads 600-1000bf on bobsled. Scoots I have found have less capacity, but are easier to load, and easier to pull, so 500 bf is about what I would expect. Another aspect of the scoot is that a partially loaded sled can be moved to where more logs can be loaded….. something you can’t do very easily with a bobsled. Traditionally scoots were pulled alongside logs that were waiting and loaded one or two at a time, as apposed to loading at a landing site. Bobsleds not so much, but much more wood can be handled, so the added planning and work pays off.

I hope to get my sled out on our new snow today or tomorrow, and will try to capture better footage…….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is a You-tube clip of loading spruce logs this summer. I edited the footage a bit differently than the other clip you may have seen. If you watch it on full screen you should be able to see better detail.

When I arrange my chains before loading, I lay out the slip hook over the rave irons and lay the other end on the ground behind the bunk. When I do this I will lay one section above the other based on how many logs I expect to load. I load all of the logs on the first side, then weave the chains. The second side I weave the chains as I load each log. Before I load on top, I put the load chain in place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o4IcVY4UfQ&list=UU9xzkRo7ALp993ssEkj2z-w&index=1&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o4IcVY4UfQ&list=UU9xzkRo7ALp993ssEkj2z-w&index=1&feature=plcp

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here are the two grab hooks I use… I made the one on the right.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is the link http://www.carriagehousesaddlery.com/events.html

And here is the location….[IMG]http://www.carriagehousesaddlery.com/uploads/2/7/4/6/2746551/568729.jpg?646[/IMG][IMG]http://www.carriagehousesaddlery.com/uploads/2/7/4/6/2746551/3717771.gif?634[/IMG]

Finger lakes is a long way from here, but it looks like fun….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Yah George, I wished Jared had talked more with me too!!!:cool:

I also was a bit misled by the title…. I expected that it was based more on a commitment between the farmer and horse…

But that is probably because, like you, I saw the horse in my life, made the move, and never looked back.

That being said I think Jared did a great job on several fronts. First, I think it was an important act of faith for him to portray what he found without editing it to be more palatable. Second, I think he unearthed the reality among young wannabees that it is really hard to make the kinds of transitions they are considering.

The film had a lot of really good historical reference, which I guess was appropriate, but it also could have had more present-day contextual reference as well. In Jared’s defense, the film could have gone on and on. I think including interviews of working teamsters was a good touch, but rather than spelling out how things used to be, more time could have been taken showing examples of people who have successfully made the transition, even if in the end those followed by the film had not.

The problem of course is that we all have different circumstances that lead us to these choices, and when I watch The Farmer and the Horse, I see a few kids with wide-ranging preconceptions…… it was no surprise to me that there was no definitive success, although I was seriously struck by the certainty expressed by Matt Schoffield. I expect that he will be making a successful venture.

Over the years I have met, and heard of, a lot of new horse-loggers, or horse-farmers….. “Oh you must know him, he logs with horses”…. They make a big splash, get a lot of attention, make grandiose statements about what they intend to do, buy every piece of new equipment before they even know how to harness, and then they just seem to fizzle out and disappear. As much as I think we should be sharing the craft and the power of draft-animals, we also must be realistic about the broader society.

We have to remember we are on the fringe, virtually an afterthought, and as we glean new teamsters from that resource pool, we must realize that they bring a lot of misgivings, and misconceptions, and incomplete backgrounds. Their failed attempts are real. Those examples do not shine well on the rest of us, but if we just blindly forge ahead espousing our successes, we will lose even more, because it just isn’t that easy.

Thanks George for starting the discussion, and thanks Jared for your creative journalistic capabilities.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

George, your plans for the chain lengths are right on.

I would take a 16″ piece of flat-stock 1 1/4″ x 3/8″, heat and taper the end, then bend it at about 1/3 length to make a slot for 3/8″ chain. Heat the long end, poke a hole through it, and open it on a dibble, put a hammer-link, or other repair link, and attach your long chain. Any slip hook will work on the other end.

I drive the tight grab off with peavey, ax, or felling hammer.

I do not use the grab, but remove slack from my scoot chain using the binder.

I don’t think the center pin is absolutely imperative. I have never had a single-bunk bobsled that didn’t have something like a pin in the center, even my swing bunk, so I have very little experience using one without. I can’t see why the chains would move too much, but I do know that with a pin they DO NOT move, which is the target I aim for. Especially in frozen conditions, chains and wood don’t always work that well together. It is an easy modification for you to put in place once you get the sled IF you decide you want it.

The trick to twisting the chains around each other is pretty straight forward. First of all I ALWAYS have the grab-hook end of my chains coming up in front of the bunk, and the slip-hook end coming up behind the bunk. You want to end up with the slip-hook end hanging downward over the outside log, and the grab-hook end coming up under that outside log. To achieve that, the ends have to go over, or under, the first log (just off-center of the bunk) in accordance to how you expect them to end up on the outside log.

If you are putting an even number of logs between center and edge of the bunk, the slip-hook end must go under the first log, and the grab-hook end over. For odd numbers the reverse is true. If you think of each end of the chain as two separate chains, they need to wrap around each other at the bunk so that when the sled moves forward, and the logs slide back slightly, the twist will tighten, choking, around the bunk.

The trick is that the twist reverses based on which pattern is used depending on the number of logs to be chained. You can practice with limb-wood on the bunk of you scoot in the barnyard just to get a physical experience, which will help a lot……

This twist also provides for a central pivot point. If there is a pin or U-bolt, the chain used for logs on the left-hand side of the bunk is twisted around the bunk on the right side of the pin, preventing the pressure exerted from pulling those logs to cause the chain to slip in that direction, either over-weighting that side of the sled, or more likely loosening the hitch and allowing logs to work free.

Where you park the sled makes all the difference in loading. Once you have frustrated yourself enough times, you will begin to develop a keen sense of that. There are a lot of factors to working in the woods. I am not in favor of re-working the landscape just to suit my purposes, but there are huge benefits to using a sled…… loading the f*@kers is not one of them. When I approach a section of forest with the idea of using a sled, I try to find the absolute best place to park for loading, in relation to the best access to the timber. I am likely to skid logs another 100′ just to use a good loading sight. I will clear trees that may not otherwise have needed to be cut, just to make a good brow or skid-way.

I like to have a bank where logs can be rolled down onto the bunk. A gentle slope is also good to assist in rolling, but too steep may mean that logs roll as they are being pulled alongside the sled, and you don’t want that. I like to have enough room so that when one load is on the sled, I can twitch in a second to be on the brow when I return.

The terrain under the sled is important too. If you are going to take the time to put on a good load, then you want them to be able to start it. A slight dip can be a killer, but level, or headed downhill can assist greatly.

The loads that can be moved on sleds are so significantly greater than on the ground, that I find the extra planning, especially related to loading and starting the sled will make all the difference. Lay out your cutting pattern and twitching trails to link up with your primary choice for loading site. If you continue to use the sleds you will find these loading areas will be long-term advantages.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Sorry for your loss John…8-(

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 32644 wrote:

I purchased my team from his son Archie – lives in Hardwick. Nice fellow.

George

Query him about sled hardware that might be taking up space in his shed…….:o

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Michael Low 32642 wrote:

That would have been Francis Foster. Lived in Walden, and was one of the first to import Brabants into the country. That’s the same Foster who owned the mill shown in the Ben Thresher video. He supported a family, 12 kids plus 10 foster kids, on horse logging and eventually his sawmill. Quite a charactor who unfortunately died just a few years ago.
Michael Low

That’s the one….Thanks Michael.

Carl

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