[Carl Russell]

@mink 33344 wrote:

if a man had a 7 foot mower and a team of horses how would it compare to a 7 foot sickle bar and a tractor on the same small field?

I see this in two ways…… First, the value of the tractor, at least in one way that it differs from horses, has to do with stamina. If you are taking care to mow a good crop of hay, the same amount as you would with horses, there probably isn’t a huge difference. However, with the tractor you don’t have to stop there, and you can push it harder, to get more done. If you want to get more done, then getting a tractor could be beneficial.

The other way I look at it has to do with whether you are internalizing costs, or externalizing costs. Tractors are more cost effective as a rule because many of the true costs are externalized through environmental degradation from the production and use of fossil fuels, and through government subsidies to keep fuel prices low, and the through economy of scale which invariably runs into more destructive costs. Using horses you don’t have the option to externalize much of the costs, and conversely you have the opportunity to actually internalize costs through craftsmanship (application of power, and repair and maintenance), self-producing fuel, and limiting the costs of inputs.

I know I over-think this stuff sometimes, but like Donn, I decided years ago that animal-power was my choice, and I work within the given natural parameters without looking for alternatives…

I can lay down all the hay I want to work up during a good stretch of weather in about 2 hours with my horses, and that is enough for me.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Tim Harrigan 33185 wrote:

Ox logging too!:o

Yes Tim, Keep me honest….., Lapse of awareness. I apologize, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 33216 wrote:

…. My question is whether I can get away with that on a bobsled or am I asking for trouble?

George

Yes you can, just roll them around to get the tightest fit, then bind them…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 33196 wrote:

Carl, when you are chaining only 2 logs on your bottom tier against your bunk you use the same chaining system as multiple logs, correct (like the picture below)? This is one of two 20 foot but logs and I chained them both the same way (they did not come off). Also, when you only have two logs on your bottom bunk are you limited to just one one top? I ended putting on a 12′ log on top but wasn’t sure about the dynamics of putting more….

Despite the learning curve, I am loving the bobsled. I now understand why you call it the “weapon”…….
George

Yep George, over for one, under and over for two, over, under, and over for three, and so on……

If there is room to for more than one, I would see no reason not to load more. I would also say that you could put a few smaller diameter logs in the middle on the bunk too…

Getting stuck in the mud is a great way to refine your ultimate use of the “weapon”….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Nice Tristan, I wish we had terrain like that to work around here.

Keep making those films. Before long we will have access to quite an inventory of excellent examples of horse-logging from all over the world.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 33176 wrote:

….. as my skids tended to roll back toward the back of the load and my log would slip back a bit…..

Try cutting the bottom of your skid flat with the saw to keep them from rolling…..

Very nice sled and operation George.

Have fun, Carl…

So now you’re ready for this poem I wrote a few years back in memory of the old-timer who showed me how to do this..

Bobsledding Logs

It’s 4:30, quarter to five,
on a crisp mid-winter afternoon.
The sun has gone down behind the hill,
and you can see dusk forming in the shadows.

Dry powder snow covers the ground.
The temperature never got above fifteen degrees today,
but working in the sun, you warmed up easily.
Now a slight chill seeps into the dampness of sweat on your shoulders.

The team is ready,
hitched in front of a nice jag of fine straight logs.
Put your coat back on, and check for mislaid tools.
Climb up on the load, gather lines,
brace your feet, and calmly call on your animals.

As the load lurches forward,
puffs of steamy breath float from the horses’ nostrils.
You can feel the weight of the load through your legs,
as the bobsled travels over humps and through hollows.

Hooves thump and squeak,
as chips of ice fly from sharpened caulks.
From below the load comes the jingle of bridle chains,
and as the logs rasp over the frozen snow
they put forth a whine, like from a bow on a fiddle.

Feel that?… That’s the spirit in your soul dancing the bob-sledder’s jig.
” Now we’re logging”.

1998; For Walt Bryan; Farmer horse logger, family man.

[Carl Russell]

@highway 33157 wrote:

Great video Carl, Thank you for sharing. A week in the woods with you would fill in a lot of the blanks for me.

Ed

There may be a chance that something like that can happen during this year……… I’ve been trying to wrap my head around a potential schedule, work to be done, and other particulars..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

George, there are several reasons to keep logs somewhat consistent on the bottom, but mostly to keep upper logs from working down through. I generally just keep with the largest logs on the bunk, long, or diameter, as I tend to save the smaller logs for loading on top. Sometimes I end up with long and short on the bottom. In those cases I load the shorter logs to the outside.

The load chain has two functions, to keep upper logs in place, and to draw together the ends of the logs on the bunk. If logs on the bunk can fan out, they will loosen, so the load chain should be back far enough to draw the ends together, but not back so far that the fronts of the upper logs fan out the other way…. so centered pretty much does it.

I see no reason why the bridle chains can’t be where you describe. It is no different than a staple on top of your scoot runner. I think Brad and John came up with something like you describe on Brad’s new sled.

I’m happy to share this info. It completes a circle for me. I was inspired 26 years ago while riding on a bobsled of logs to learn and perpetuate this method. I have been happy for years to know that it helps me to be more effective in my own operation, but having folks interested in learning about it who are genuinely intent on employing it is inspiring in its own way…:D

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Second installment, showing chaining method…. enjoy:o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OliaEMxgb0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OliaEMxgb0

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks for the comments guys. Mitch HE has his moments, but mostly does a great job….. he is very responsive.

Mink, I have always hitched my logs like that, single, team, even using oxen. I like to have them facing me while I am distracted by digging under the log. I find it better than trying to compensate for creeping when faced back toward the landing. I like them to come around like that….. I could never quite accept those horses that seem to need to driven around in a loop past the log before hitching.

I got some more footage today, and will post soon.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have moved a lot of logs with horses, from some pretty frigged up situations. There have been many times when folks suggested I put a winch on my cart. In my case I just haven’t needed to, AND I have felt the expense would not be justified.

I admired Elmin’s cart. I would suggest against electric winches. They use a lot of energy, and unless you have a recharging system on the cart, you’re apt to find you’re out of juice just when you need it…… also, they really aren’t that powerful (certainly not as powerful as a horse).

I saw a clip on you-tube of a cart with a chainsaw winch on it that seemed to work really well.

When I have needed to reach logs a long way out of reach I have used ropes and pulleys. Certainly these things are not nearly as easy to move around as a winch mounted on your cart or sled, but I already have them for other work, and when I’m done using them, they aren’t in my way on the cart or sled.

If I was going to move a lot of wood out of a swamp, I think I would set up a spar and use a block and tackle. When I started out I bought my first horse from an old horse logger who logged off some steep slopes along the white river like that. I’m talking STEEEP. The team worked on the level in a field at the top of the slope, and he and his dad worked the rigging to draw the logs up to the top of the bank. Then they loaded them on the sled and took them to roadside.

I think Lanny’s comments about having a winch for convenience is interesting. I’m sure a boat winch could work in those cases for equipment hook-up.

I back my carts right up into my trailer with the horses.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Carl Russell 32875 wrote:

……

I hope to get my sled out on our new snow today or tomorrow, and will try to capture better footage…….

Carl

So the memory chip topped out before I got what I wanted, but I did have an interesting day anyway. Instead of starting a new thread where these comments may get lost, I thought I would include them here.

Earlier this winter when I was pulling out some bridle chains for George, I came across an old chain I had around waiting for the time when I needed to replace old sections. I cut two new lengths and was a bit nonchalant about exact length. I looped them around above the rave irons and by eye they appeared to be where I wanted.

The other day I finally had snow cover enough to cross some serious ice and take the sled to the top of the hill for some wood. I put on about 1.5 cords of soft maple and headed on down. Between the weight of the load, snow, and ice, the sled pushed pretty good on the team, so I put on one chain to start with. The first seriously steep section is only about 50′ long and then levels out for another 50′ or so, so I wasn’t too concerned that one chain wasn’t quite enough to hold the sled back. Gravity can be a good thing, so I generally don’t get too worried if the sled goes easily downhill IF I know the horses will be able to steer it.

When I got down to the last steep stretch, about 200′ of steep and steeper, with broad-based dips, and several turns, over a 30′ ice flow, ending at a narrow culverted stream crossing, I decided I needed both chains. About 20′ after I started down one of the cains snubbed up against a protruding rock frozen into the trail. We were stopped dead. Horses downhill from the sled to a point where their heads were about even with the bunk on the sled, and not advantage to be gained.

I had to unhook the bridle chains and pry them out from under the runners. This is a time consuming maneuver, putting the point into a link and levering over the runner, alternating with digging under the runner to remove resistance, but in the end a functional escape. Once the chains were free, I reset them in front of the runners and proceeded. Unbelievably I got another 20′ before it happened again. In all I performed this task 3 more times.

I have never had this happen before, and I have covered several miles with this set-up. In fact the problem occurred on ice, frozen dirt, and in a muddy section. I was pretty frustrated to say the least.

Upon investigation I found that these new bridle chains were just long enough to reach right under the bunk. This is too far. What was happening was that the entire weight of the load was bearing down on the chains and the least resistance was magnified. The proper length should have the chain loop about 12″ in front of the bunk. In this way the sled is actually putting pressure down on the chain, but there is less relative pressure, and the load actually pushes the chains a bit more.

I know the conditions played a part, but I will shorten the chains and try again this weekend.

I should have that load chaining footage then too.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Scott G 32959 wrote:

……General assumption being that the long grab/fid hook is used for pushing under the log to run the choker. ……

I can see that…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Carl Russell 32957 wrote:

I’ll get exact dimensions later, ….

10″ x 31″ inside dimensions, just wide enough for the saw to fit in without too much slop.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’ll get exact dimensions later, but the box is made of 1/2 hardwood bracketed by steel, with a solid wooden bottom. If it had expanded steel mesh for the bottom it would probably be a bit better, dirt and moisture falling through. My 18″ bar extends beyond the sides, so the wooden edge is better as it takes some wear from and doesn’t dull the saw like steel would. I am going to bolt on some old felling wedges for added wear-life…. the wood wears out and has to be replaced.

The other thing I really like about the tray-box is that I can grab the saw from either side of the cart….

Scott, you are right, each their own, and something like a tray-box has to be designed into the rig, whereas a scabbard can just be added where it is convenient.

Carl

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