[Carl Russell]

Two things…… never trust your animals no matter what. If you are trying to train trustworthy animals you might as well stop. They are not computers, and therefore they cannot be programmed to act predictably.

This is not a statement of negativity, just a realistic view.

It is not the job of the teamster to impart trust into animals, rather it is to be as trustworthy as possible.

I don’t think you are being not trustworthy, just don’t blame them if they are not. Your expectations are too high.

Now as far as standing when working, they do not need to be trustworthy to stand. They just need practice. They are young still. I had a profoundly steady pair of working oxen that ran away from me several times when they were that age.

Just find ways to work them without trying to trust them. Unhitch and tie them off when you are not able to attend to their heads. It may not be what you think you want, but they won’t be able to do what you don’t want them to do. Sometimes preventing the worst is a lot better than getting the best.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Girdling is always a cost effective way to remove poorly formed, declining, and competing trees. Are you interested in improving the stand for timber production, or are you clearing to return it to pasture? Only that in the case of clearing, it will probably be easier to clean up if the trees are directionally felled and delimbed, even if not harvested.

Some people don’t like to see lots of standing dead trees, or large amounts of dead unharvested material, but I think it is a good way to get the necessary work done (reducing competition from low grade trees) without adding the cost and impact of harvesting material that barely covers the investment.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Droverone 33926 wrote:

…… A simple study of the direction of the force exerted would show that by one animal lagging in a neck yoke would move the direction of the force laterally into the side of the neck, possible interfering with the point of the shoulder or against the vertebrae, neither of which would allow the animal to be able to exert the most force to keep the load moving, forward or otherwise.

I meant lagging in terms of forming an arc…… slowing down the outside animal so that they maintain the yoke perpendicular to the forward motion rather than slicing across it in an arc. The arc is preferable to the animals because the action requires less effort, so the initiative of the teamster is to keep them moving squarely forward while crossing over.

I used a head yoke on my Holsteins for over a year and while I found many of the physical properties of the design to be excellent, it was more restrictive than the neck yoke. The long slender necks (compared to beef crosses most commonly headyoked) of the Holsteins worked to their disadvantage. For my purposes allowing the steers to have independent head movement and getting the yoke back near the shoulder gave them much better applied power, especially when pulling heavy loads on turns.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 33917 wrote:

……. I really have to keep my eye on the off ox here and make sure he doesn’t try to turn too fast….

…. I suppose in a perfect world they would be totally even, but having the off ox back in haw turns makes everything so much easier than having him forward. ……..

Drive the off ox. Your nigh steer will follow you, and should be really easy to direct (because you are close). When you get the off ox to pay attention to you, it will be easy to get the nigh one to come along with you.

One of the reasons I didn’t like working my steers with a head yoke was because they were locked into working perfectly even with each other at all times. The beauty of the neck yoke is that the steers can be somewhat off-line from the yoke, and they can use it somewhat like an evener. So I think that the outside steer will actually learn to lag a bit when turning under load to keep the power going forward.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Kevin Cunningham 33856 wrote:

Th….. For me it is the off ox that contacts the chain more often on a gee turns. The nigh one stays pretty much out of the way on a haw turn. …..

This is because you can step up and out on the nigh side encouraging this animal to follow you, while the off ox has to be encouraged in another manner, usually a snap on the tail-head, while the nigh ox needs to be held back, usually accomplished with body language (not stepping toward the animal, almost holding back so the steer wants to stay with you and not push on the off ox, stepping behind the shoulder and reaching over to the off ox instead of reaching out in front of the nigh one to reach the off one).

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I also used fire hose over the chain, as it is better than bare chain…. pulls less hair, and is not are rough.

The truth is that they will learn to try to avoid it….. which can be a good thing, but it also can be a bad thing if they haven’t been shown how to actually step over while turning under load.

Draft animals need to be taught to move forward while turning under load. To accomplish this the inside animal must step ahead, and by so doing maintains a parallel orientation to the chain. If they are allowed to turn evenly, like might be accomplished by a wheeled vehicle, it will cause the inside animal’s hind legs to be forced back inward toward the angling chain.

I know there is a tendency to ask for a turn by placing the whip in front of the inside steer, but turning under load should be accomplished not by slowing them down, but by encouraging that animal to step up and to the side at the same time.

I usually use the pain from the chain to my advantage coinciding a command to step out, or up, at the same time the animal comes in contact with it. I would compliment a turn command with encouragement to put out.

Another option is what Tristan had mentioned in another thread about the Go Devil. In Nova Scotia they tend to use a long pole instead of a chain. The pole, or tug, attaches to the yoke. In NS with a head yoke there is a pin through it, but with a neck yoke a short piece of chain can be bolted on, or a hook, depending on how you hook up. The other end has a swivel and hook. The pole is 2-3″ diameter. This method will protect the legs because the wood gets polished and smooth, but it also is more incentive for the animal to step out.

I am pretty sure that Howie Van Ord has mentioned that he used this method sometimes. The pole just drags between the steers when not hitched, but I never used it because I always like to coil up the chain and hang it in the yoke to get it out from under feet when not working, or preparing to hitch.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Tim Harrigan 33762 wrote:

fence posts, yokes, sled runners, fire wook, wagon tongues, fire wood, axe handles, wedges.

…. and peavey handles. Carves pretty hard, but doesn’t break very easily.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Vicki 33766 wrote:

Carl, what do you mean by “working cadence”?
……

When animals are put to use there is more at stake then a certain amount of time to exercise. The project usually has physical parameters, acreage, depth of soils disturbance, etc. To accomplish these factors the energy of the animals needs to be managed. Watching the exertion and stamina of the animals, the teamster has control of the “gas pedal”, the “fuel tank”, and the “available horse-power”. To be effective these aspects of animal power need to be subtly managed for most efficient delivery of the finished product.

A working team is looking to the teamster for guidance, not only in terms of Gee, Haw, Back…, but also in terms of how hard to exert themselves, and perhaps more importantly, in terms of purpose. If they get over-tired they will lose effectiveness, and they will lose trust and the desire to follow. They will also lose interest if the teamster has no purpose, no intent, or is just not that interested in, or knowledgeable about, what they are undertaking.

By establishing a working cadence the teamster sets a goal on completion of the project, formulates a realistic appraisal of the effort required by the team, and takes control of applying the team to the endeavor. When the team is getting tired, it doesn’t mean they are all used up. If the teamster still has work to do, or starts with a knowledge that what they want to do is more than the team can do easily, then establishing a cadence of exertion and rest that conserves energy will not only get more work out of them physically, but it will also maintain enthusiasm.

When a team starts to come to the upper limits of exertion, they naturally want to stop. If they get so tired that they disregard the teamster and stop on their own, then they will stop looking to the teamster for guidance. However, conversely if the teamster demonstrates his/her knowledge of the extent of available power in relation to the work being done, and stops the animals while they are still exerting with alacrity they will be even more attracted to the initiative.

The positive feedback loop that is established here is much more powerful than the same process in reverse. Meaning a teamster can lose ground through ineffective working cadence, but not nearly at the rate that they can gain from an effective working cadence. The reason why I like working exercise as apposed to training exercise is precisely because there is much more opportunity to bring more purpose to the endeavor, and I can make much more progress.

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 33743 wrote:

….. Truth be told, I was kinda getting tired of making circles with my sled. I think my team was too. ….

This is a very important realization. Real work is so much more satisfying, and your purposeful initiative is attractive to the animals. I always find more training opportunities while working than during training exercises. Also finding ways to create working cadence is a huge mechanism for gaining their trust, as well as improving their working stamina.

Thanks for the update, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Nice compilation Ed. You’re doing a great job…. with horse and camera.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 33684 wrote:

I suppose one of the attractive things about Facebook is that you are not limited in how many photos you can post. I know I just had to clean up (downsize/delete) some old photos to be able to post a few new ones on this site. I know I can put a link to the photos in another website where there is no size limitation, but it is sure nice if they are right there in the post so you can see them right away as you are reading. Perhaps facebook is attracting people who want to see and post lots of photos (as Kevin points out)? Again, I haven’t noticed this pattern…

As many of you know, I have spent many hours visiting this site. Almost too many, but at the beginning I felt a personal drive to see substantive discussion. I had visited other sites and found, even in the discussion forum format, them to be littered with frivolous conversations. We have had our share here, but I see much more of that stuff on facebook.

They both have their value.

I started off this year purposefully reducing my contributions here (and facebook) because it is so easy to take these interactions seriously and get caught up in the activity.

I do find facebook to be a great place to post photos….. especially to drag over here. Once a pic is posted to facebook (or any other web based album) it can be dragged to this forum and placed into a thread with NO impact on your upload limit…. it is not a DAP.com file….

For example here is a picture I just posted last week on facebook…..

I just thought that an update of my physical condition was more appropriate for facebook that for DAP.com………

So that this thread doesn’t get distracted follow this link to find the details http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=267047103377257&set=a.140942595987709.37159.100002159098323&type=1&theater

Suffice to say that I was pretty “F”ing surprised to find my leg where it was…… between evener and loaded sled…

But back to the topic. I think the categorization capacity on here is a huge future value for archival info that facebook just can’t begin to deliver.

So I use both tools together to get the most out of both…..

Thanks to all of you for taking this so seriously, and for all of the thought that goes into nearly every post on here.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 33541 wrote:

I think this is key to how to react to this situation. Did he not understand or was he being defiant? Hard to know without being there and without knowing this particular ox. He’s a very very smart ox and only needs taught something once when it is something he wants to do, or something in his advantage. Even though I know he can learn something in one lesson I still give him several to make sure it’s in his head well. He had just finished “standing over” at least a dozen times with no problems, which is a very strong indication that he knew what it meant……

I am not arm-chairing, but trying to help you understand what you have described…….

You KNOW he KNOWS how to “stand over”…….. so why did you think you needed to educate him about it again????

If he knows the response, and you describe that he clearly does, then why is he not following it?

I have never actually observed an animal acting on premeditated malevolence. I am not sure that an animal actually has anything to gain from that, especially one that has been imprinted and socialized to working with humans. I have observed that animals’ responses are much more momentary, and usually relate to present stimuli, and not some deeper intellectual decision making.

I did not mean that he was confused about how to stand over, I think he was more likely confused about the leadership.

If he is confused about the command, or the direction, or the accompanying body language, he might act confused, but he also might just not comply. This may seem to be defiance, and might actually be defiance, but from my experience, it is still most likely related to the way he is interpreting the command.

I suggest that the frustration really roots from the disconnect in his attention to your command, and in your execution of the command, and not from a need to teach him how to “stand over”….. especially when you are frustrated, or with him tied in the barn. You want him to “stand over” when in yoke, attached to the sled (or whatever) with a confident comfortable voice and a minimal physical effort on your part.

It is my instinct, based entirely on past experiences (having absolutely no personal knowledge about your exact situation), and yes based on the same kind of frustration-driven episodes, that a step back to evaluate the process of communication, and the level of subtlety, or lack thereof, of assertion to elicit the desired response would be a good exercise.

I pass no judgement on what happened, I have spent a lot of time going back over my own share of these experiences, and invariably they come back to communication……

Success with any command can be increased by practicing pressure and release …..assertion and response….. at even the simplest level. When the animal learns to comfortably and consistently follow the teamster’s direction it is immaterial what actual command they are following. When they learn to trust and follow the communication, they will never forget that.

Sometimes it is difficult to separate the working action from communication, but I have found that it can be a very important exercise for the teamster.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Andy, just think about this. If you are trying to teach them to stand over, and it requires so much energy that it turns into a fight, are you not teaching them to fight with you???

Think about holding a foot up. You can’t expect them to hold it there for ten minutes the first time you ask. If you do, you will have to fight to hold it there, and you will actually be teaching the animal that you want to fight.

When an animal realizes that they can exert pressure back against yours and have some success in maintaining their position, they will try to practice that. When you ask them to do something and they indicate they need more pressure, most of us are inclined to get frustrated, then our escalation of pressure is more related to that frustration then to comfortable leadership.

The animals are not attracted to a frustrated leader which solidifies their resistance.

The concept that you can’t put them away if they defy you has some merit, but in comparison to putting them away after a fight, it is a minimal set-back.

I would also suggest that you not immediately assume that the were defying you as much as indicating to you that they were confused about just what you wanted. Humility will get you farther than frustration.

Try to find ways in which you can be completely successful without becoming frustrated. Catch them unaware and just give them a big push, get them off balance, show them how big and strong you are, and how easily you make them get out of your way. They need to be watching you all the time, ready to yield to your presence, and to your pressure. Waiting until they are prepared to resist will not give you the advantage you are looking for.

Keep up the good work, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@NB axemen 33395 wrote:

Carl,
What’s the Price tag of one of these Sulky plow that the 3 Abreast is on?

Tried sending you a PM but your inbox is full??

Thanks

I would call either of the contact numbers above. I just posted the info here, I am not privy to prices and availability.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I was at the sugar house today, and was staring blankly out the door at my old scrap iron (gold mine) pile, when I remembered this old car frame I secured years ago for the purpose of making a Go-devil…. but never did. After Tristan‘s recent videos I’ve gotten thinking again. I’ll have to weld on a few pieces for bunk and for hitching yoke, but I think it will work as a base to start from.

Carl

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