[Carl Russell]

Ethan, I applaud you taking on this type of work…… It is the right time for you to broaden your applied forestry knowledge. My early forestry experiences were as a procurement forester for a large regional softwood mill. My experiences there filled my mind with lots of questions, and really helped me to see the contradictions between what I had learned about ecological forestry and what was being practiced as “Forestry” across the landscape by so-called foresters primarily to suit the purposes of the industry.

I hope that you can see how the forestry product is compromised for the sake of the machines. Some devilish belief that the need for wood is so great that the only way to harvest it is with machines, therefore the forestry must be tailored to suit the needs of the mechanical operations.

Horse-logging can be a pastoral, relaxed, artful way to work in the woods, but it also can be a cost-effective way to adhere to basic ecological and even silviculture principles that machines can’t afford to address.

Take a minute one day, and try to convince your operators to keep the machine on the main skid trail, pulling cable 100-150 to individual trees to preserve crop trees, or patches of regen, while marking to maintain high residual stocking…….. Then ask them what they would need to be paid to make that happen……

At any rate, I’m sure this experience for you will be foundational to an effective forestry career. Before I started working with horses, I chopped 100’s of thousands of board feet for skidders…… it was ball-breaking bullshit work, but I learned a lot about efficient chainsaw use and production……

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jen….. it certainly sounds like a bear…… we had one several years ago going for the kitchen leftovers we feed in the yard. No birds were ever maligned.

Andy, my experience with this type of wound leads me to believe you are dealing with a young predator like a raccoon, or skunk.

Hawks don’t actually kill their prey by biting, rather they use their talons and pierce the body. They also usually don’t take a prey they can’t carry with them. Carrying the prey is one of the ways that their talons are most effective.

Throat biting like that is truly indicative of coons, skunks, and the like. Weasels and mink are more inclined to actually crush the skull, so their wounds are often higher.

The fact that you caught that raccoon last fall leads me to think that there may be a yearling (s) out there trying its hand at killing. Because coons are scavengers as well as predators, they don’t necessarily get a lot of practice killing if they are able to feed themselves with small prey and other scavenged food.

Take one of your carcasses and set it in a trap. The repetitive nature leads me to believe that it will be back, and I can almost guarantee that it would be just as happy to eat an already dead bird. Again, cut the liver out and use that for bait….. almost 100% success for these types of predations…

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Complicated to answer accurately because it depends on the specs of the buyer…..Some will not buy aged logs because they can’t be certain about stain and rot….

However, I would say that yes Hemlock will be OK in October, but I’d be surprised if any mill would pay top dollar for logs that sat all summer.

To give you some context, a friend brought some logs to me over a year ago….. they had sat 6 months before that in the woods before he could get them out. I started sawing them this spring, so they have been off the stump for about 2 years. Stacked in a high pile the logs on the outside had fungi and some decay in the slabs, but interior was as good as fresh cut. The logs that were buried in the pile, where moisture content was higher, were basically unaffected. Again this is for personal use, and a result of swapping of favors so the financial expectations are not high……..

I was a log buyer for a large hemlock/softwood mill back in the 80’s so my experience with log and lumber quality is not novice. I see no reason not to use this lumber as I would brand new lumber from fresh cut logs, but I also suspect that mills are probably not inclined to want the older logs.

I would suggest shipping the partial load right now while prices are high. You may have to pay a bit more for trucking, but I would rather clean up the landing while the logs are most marketable.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Stove’s been burning for a few days…… have to heat the water anyway because there’s no sun, but of course it feels good. Out yesterday and it felt more uncomfortable than during winter…. chilled to the bone.

It certainly has gotten to where we can’t rely on those old patterns we grew up with. I have been beating my head against old patterns for several years now, and just decided to try to be more flexible.

This year I took advantage of the early dry warmth and got the garden ready in April…. usually couldn’t get on it until mid May. This year I have taters up a foot and have already hilled them twice. I keep wincing because I still have ingrained in my essence that June 10th final frost date…… but we’re forging ahead.

I also had a heavy early hay crop present itself….. I just could not bring myself to cut hay in MAY (?). I knew I was going to cut hay this year, but my equipment wasn’t ready, and I have a hard enough time drying hay in June….. so I just brush-hogged it back into the soil. It’s coming back strong, and I will probably get a good crop nearer the end of June…..

Lousy weather for pigs though. Our sows farrowed last week….. 85 degrees in May???? Way too hot for a farrowing sow…… one got exhausted and could finish, I had to work for fifteen minutes with my fingertips, arm ALL THE WAY inside her, tickling the hind feet of a dead piglet until it finally moved close enough to get ahold of it, then it took another 20 minutes to get it out of her……. and then I finally had to just put her out of her misery. Then 2 days later it’s 50 degrees and raining and piglets are shivering….. we have four orphans and runts in the house, but six good sound piggies running with the remaining mom. 25 piglets inside, 18 came out alive, 10 remain……….

Thinking about raising ducks…….:p

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Riverbound 35113 wrote:

…… Its tough to get the balance between “hold back”, “woa” and “step up” in terms of the lines……

I adhere to a simple fundamental for using line pressure for communication. Contact for work, release for standing. When the horses are standing there is no pressure on the lines. When I prepare to move forward I pick up the lines applying contact pressure which alerts the horses to the coming command to move forward. I kiss, or suck my teeth, and advance the horses on a taught line.

Then when working them I control the forward motion be varying degrees of pressure. More pressure to slow them down, but whenever they attain my desired gait I release pressure, not completely, but enough so they get the reward for the act of walking comfortably. My objective is to show through increased pressure the desired gait, then using the release/reward to try to get them to maintain that gait.

Of course they can surge forward again, which is why I never completely release, but keep a certain level of what I consider acceptable pressure ( I actually try to teach them what I consider to be perfect pressure, and work to attain that in every working setting). The problem is not to fall into constant heavy pressure to hold them at a certain gait, that will result in the surging horse who thinks release is a way to get freedom. The release should be as quick and as often as the attempt. Light as a feather and strong as steel, at the same time.

This is complimented by the fact that I never stop them with pressure. When I want them to stop, I completely release pressure. This helps them to understand that released pressure is a reward, because they love to stand, and is not something to take advantage of by surging. They are apt to be more prepared to stop when they feel pressure release, than they are to surge forward with it. When conditioned, I can drop my lines without speaking to them, and they will stop and stand. (Of course I always say whoa as I want them to stop and stand on command as well.)

This is also how I show them that when there is no pressure on the lines, they are standing. Whoa is not stop, it is stand, and it is a reward, so they learn to take advantage of getting the opportunity to stand……. when they creep ahead, they get worked….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Just a quick qualifier…… One thing I wanted to say was that while you may be able to get your horses accustomed to walking this slow, it will not be a gait that they will naturally adhere to, so you will have to train them to respond to your driving guidance. It takes quite a bit of effective communication to condition horses to have such a wide range of gait while being worked.

Post a video when you get them to do it…… it would be nice to see.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

That kind of slow is really hard.

First I would suggest working on driving them at the desired speed somewhere else. Instead of taking the weekend off, get them out pulling a similar load down the lane, or along the edge of a field or something else. This will serve a few purposes. By getting away from the IMPORTANT task, you can relax a little more. With the anxiety of the important work sometimes it can be very hard to recognize the slightest tries.

Any expectation that pushes the horses so far out of their comfort zone must be accomplished by degrees. Trying to accomplish the perfect speed all at once is probably next to impossible, especially while doing the chore. The animals will make attempts to respond positively, but you are more likely to catch them in a partial response, and to make progress beyond that point you will need to reward that try…… probably several times.

I use mine for logging, with high expectations for pulling hard on heavy loads, then when cultivating I have to get them to use a completely different energy level. Like Donn says it rests a lot on how the message is conveyed through the lines.

I am a firm believer in driving instead of leading. I think you have much more subtle control over their forward motion with lines. The other factor is that the body language you use when leading is really wasted training if you ever intend to drive them, as you won’t be in front of them then, and they will likely correlate the slow walk on a lead with following that body language.

I remember one of my mentors (who was in his late 70’s) relating to me something his father told him when he was a kid….. “If you want to drive them, then drive them, don’t lead them.”

I used to limit myself to a straight bar bit, but I started using a Liverpool a few years ago, and I have found that especially when limiting forward motion, they work great, and if you practice, you can convey much more subtle directions, and they don’t have to be pain-makers.

I think that the pressure that will work the best will be increased bit pressure. Making the pull harder would make them work too hard, and an increasing load would encourage good horses to pull harder, not back off.

I think it is very high expectations to want the horses to just walk that slow without constant alert driving control. It needn’t be hard pressure just accurate pressure (and release) (like Donn suggested).

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

As far as the skunk trapping, I have done this several times….. the blanket works great, as some times you are not certain what you are trying to catch. There are Skunk traps….. tubular enclosed so that they can’t arch their back, nor can they see you. I usually use a large hav-a-hart to allow for large skunks, or coons etc…. so in that case skunks have plenty of room to move and to spray. Approaching behind the blanket and draping the trap works well, but I have had them go off, perhaps I dropped the blanket on too fast, but generally they can’t really tell what the blanket is, and are not incline to spray. Once covered you can bang on the cage and they just hunker down believing they are safe.

Mitch, I was always told of the old timers putting a lantern in the field so the skunks would be blinded, or at least not be able to see well in the dark, then they would sneak up from behind and pick them up by the tail….. without their feet on the ground apparently they can squeeze out the spray…… then they’d club them over the head….. as of yet I haven’t needed to revert to this for success.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Geez Geoff……..:( My heart goes out to you…….. Not sure what else to say……. I’m a long way away, but please let me (us) know if there is anything we can do…

I hope you can find some peace.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have had as many as four horses here that I lead back and forth to far pastures…. up to 1/2 mile away. I have also recovered them from adventures as far as 2 miles away. I lead them 2 on o each side. I lead 2 horses the same way.

Like George I expect them to follow, but I usually find that lead rope training is an individual exercise. They learn to walk with me alone, and then the rules NEVER change.

If a horse is walking too fast, I slow them down. There are a pocket full of ways to make that happen, George and Erika have described a few.

Rather than a chain I have just made a quick loop of lead rope around the nose threaded through rings in the halter as a way to put extra pressure on the nose.

I like a horse to follow slightly behind me on a loose lead….. and the same goes for 4. If this tendency seems distracting to you, for safety sake, I would work on them separately until they work for you the way you want…….. by the way I don’t think I would tie lead ropes together.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Very nice……. how the heck do you get an ox to move that quick?????/:rolleyes:

I love the angles you use. I really appreciate that you show aspects that are important to people who want to do the work.

Keep it up, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Thecowboysgirl 34437 wrote:

…… I will practice this all more naked in the roundpen (ha ha he is naked, no harness, not me!!!) before attempting it driving again. …….

I was going to say please post pictures….:p

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Thecowboysgirl 34316 wrote:

…….They definitely know what whoa means. They just don’t want to stand still all by themselves……..

From my perspective, this is a big part of the source of your difficulty.

Whoa should not just mean stop….. it should mean stand. If all you want is for them to stop when you say whoa, then that is all you will get.

There have been many good suggestions in this thread about not trying to coerce them into standing, and Karl explained a very good process.

I would just add that it really helps to think clearly about the way you are sending messages to them.

Using pressure and release as the basis for all communication with horses, I condition my animals to prepare to move with pressure on the lines. This is not PRESSURE, just attention to the fact that the lines are now active in my hands. When they show me they are alert…ears back, heads up, I speak to them to move forward. While they are working they can feel my guidance through the slight constant contact on the bits.

When I want them to stop/stand, I release the lines and say whoa. They quickly learn that with pressure they move, and without they stand. It is really difficult to just train for standing and expect that the horse will stand from then on…. as has been said, it takes time to reinforce the conditioning through consistent repetition. Thinking like this will help immensely. Don’t lead yourself to believe that there is a trick that will teach them to stand. Be alert, and honest with yourself about the exact capability that the animal is showing you. They, and you are on a continuum, working forward.

If they have a lot of energy, or are distracted in any other way, and don’t feel like taking a rest, then you can run into difficulty with them developing poor standing habits. With this in mind it is good to have more on your mind than just standing. If you have a workout plan that includes standing, but focuses on other guidance oriented exercises that will tire them mentally, then when you ask them to stand they will be more willing. If you just focus on standing and they won’t, then all you are teaching them is to not stand when you ask them.

A person running after a run-away horse yelling whoa, is only teaching the horse to run away when they hear a person yelling whoa.

If you are having these difficulties while driving these horses I would definitely advise you to not work them together……. They have already showed you that they are more interested in each other than they are in you……. you should work on changing that first.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@oxman 34182 wrote:

Hi, folks. The whips mentioned above are our specialty. We in Nova Scotia have all types of ox whips; braided, twisted, plastic, wooden, old, and new. They are advantageous in several ways. They have a longer stock and shorter lash than a bull whip, but also have a shorter stock and longer lash than a horse whip. Maritime ox whips are lithe and efficient. Lashes are fashioned several ways, usually 2 to 2 1/2 times the length of the stock. We may have what you want.

Please post your contact info, or PM or email me. Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Kevin Cunningham 34039 wrote:

…….. I could go about my life and never look at these parts of who I am and how I got to this place, but I think that my life will be better and rich for facing some of these demons…….

As many of you know, I tend to be broadly philosophical. To some that is not what they are interested in. For many people, the issue they want to face has to do with physical aspects of the way the animals are acting, etc.

This statement above comes across my field of view like a that moonrise last night, so bright, so massively present, so full of truth.

Learning to become a teamster does require that we are instructor and student at the same time. It is really hard to see the difference between when we are teaching and when we are learning.

When I started this endeavor I was young and deeply committed. I did have some great guidance, but I also felt a huge degree of pressure from people who scrutinized my choices. At first I was energized by the feeling that I had something to prove, but I was not aware of how much that affected my own appraisal of what I was doing, and how it affected my leadership of the animals I worked with.

Yes we can place expectations on animals that may be beyond their capacity, and yes we can place expectations on ourselves to perform at certain level, but we also need to address the learned behavior of involuntarily gathering expectations from our families and communities. We all suffer from this in one way or another. Sometimes the expectations are not a bad thing, but it is the subversive way that they seep into our lives, riding with us without our even knowing it.

One of the most profound realizations that I came to when working animals is that they are always present. And to be affective as their leader I need to be present too. I began to realize that when they didn’t act according to my preconceptions it was precisely because I had not been as present as I could have been. I don’t mean that I wasn’t standing there, or that I wasn’t looking at them, but that I was not clearly aware of the circumstances of the situation I was in.

I also became aware that when I lost my temper it was actually because I felt out of control of the situation, not just my emotion…… not so much out of control, but really threatened by the fact that I had lost control of the situation, and that led my to an uncontrollable anger.

What followed next for me was reflection on why I was so distracted……. and it turned out to be the high expectations that I felt I needed to place on myself as a result of what I believed was expected of me from my family and community. I realized that even if they weren’t actually there in the minds of those people, I had developed a habit of trying to respond, sometimes revolting against, them.

My commitment to working with animals forced me to address these issues face on. I found that I had to drop the tendency to place such high expectations on myself. I needed to actually start every day with a blank slate. Open my eyes onto a whole new world. I obviously start where I leave off, but I have learned to come to my animals with no expectations. I don’t mean I let them disrespect me, but I am calm, honest, open, and unpretentious. This is extremely attractive to them, and it provides me with a completely un-tinted view of what I am doing with them.

I didn’t mean to highjack your thread, but your comment touched a nerve, and I felt the only way to speak to it was with personal reflection.

Carl

[Author]

Posts