[Carl Russell]

Droverone your concern is legitimate, but I have been accused of holding an inhumane event, just because we had working animals there.

I don’t think that there are specific standards that we can adhere to that can actually separate us. I don’t take care of my animals like those you describe, but there may be things I do, or ask my animals to do, that someone would be offended about. I don’t think there are enough of us draft animal types in the world for us to start pointing fingers at one faction or another.

I personally am just as annoyed with the draft animal enthusiast as I am with the abusive puller, but it does me little good to alienate either. In fact I can find people in these camps that I can relate to, without endorsing the poorest ones.

I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of building community, and helping to broaden people’s minds. I will continue to work to build bridges in all directions.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Would you like me to reactivate your administrator privileges?:pJennifer Judkins

I didn’t mean to make it sound like I think it should be the administrator, nor that one would need administrator status, just to sort of point out that one person, or a few, can make a site like this more lively by seeding the clouds…… yes it takes time, but if that is one of our objectives it may be worth trying to find that…….. I’ve put in my stint, and I love sitting in the back row……

@Countymouse 36695 wrote:

….., I think the 2nd and 3rd and 4th place pullers move a lot of weight, so who cares if you get the blue ribbon?

If the goal of shows and competitions is to attract new people, than perhaps it is best to judge success by the number of people you attract to doing real meaningful work with oxen. If the goal is to get blue ribbons, or the degree of fame that this provides, I think this is missing the point.

This year at the Tunbridge Fair the free-for-all oxen was a very good class. First place finisher is a man from Vermont who has been pulling oxen for years. His team of full Chianinas were very well mannered, and he was an exceptional gentleman. I know only a small amount about him, but he doesn’t work his cattle per se, due to his professional career, but from what I saw there is little doubt that he could get real work done with them. Second place went to a man I know works his cattle in the woods, and has for years, at least part of the time. He is a hard driving teamster, but ALWAYS puts on a good show, well mannered, direct as a teamster, and places pretty much every time. This man brought this pair of Chi X Charlais oxen to 2009 NEAPFD, and they did a great job of working demos.

The third place, however, went to a young man I have known since he was a young teen with 4H cattle. He drives a truck for a living, but works his Chi X Charlais in the woods regularly. As Andy suggests, in this case from where I sat, his performance far outpaced every other team, oxen or horses, on the fairgrounds this year. Each time he approached the sled he paid very little attention to his team who were walking smoothly and directly. With a minimum of direction they would come around and stand to be hitched. Once hitched, he would ask them to tighten the chain, he would set them up square and ready, and only when he gave them the command did they tear into the load. I really don’t care that he doesn’t work his cattle for a living. I know he aligns himself more with pullers than with DAPNet, but I can assure you that he knows how to apply oxen to draft.

I used to take my Holsteins to the Tunbridge Fair…. it was a great way to get in for free all four days…… but I usually got the blue ribbon in the working class. I tried them in the pulling arena a few times, but my heart was not in it, and we never did well, but people still remark to me about the fact that I am the only teamster they ever saw in the pulling arena who hitched his own cattle….

Meanwhile in the free-for-all ponies, I saw one surge forward, rear up under severe bit pressure, stand on his hind legs, and topple over backward, hitting his head on the steel sled….:eek:

In the 3300 class horses, we saw a horse that apparently needed some more spirit, so the driver’s assistant loosened the bridle so that the animal would see the teamster behind him (meaning there must be some reason the horse would be more inclined to pull harder seeing his driver). It worked, he was pretty wild next hitch. threw himself forward…. oh yeah bridle is loose…. bit falls out….. um….. now how do you hold him back???? Amazing heroes run in from the puller group to save the day….. all the excitement everyone came to see.

In all of this I mean to point out that EVERY person whom I know who knows anything about working animals who saw these displays was well aware of the difference between the show put on by the 3rd place oxen vs. the show in the horse pulls. Of coarse there are many more people in the bleachers who haven’t a clue…… yelling GO while animals are exerting themselves:eek:……. but I don’t think they even know enough to recall the features that I observed. I think it is like a football game to them, the details are beyond their understanding. All they know is that it was exciting, and someone won…..

I don’t get worried about how this reflects on us….. anyone who may join our ranks can clearly see the difference.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 36684 wrote:

I am certainly not advocating that the content of this site change. I think this site is wonderful and plays as essential role in mentoring, continued learning, documentation of traditional practices and techniques, as well as introduction of new practices and techniques. My concern, which is only something I think about from time to time, is if this site alone is sufficient for attracting new draft animal users. I think that if someone wants to know more about draft animals, and is serious about them, google inevitable leads them to this site. I wonder, though, about the people who might not have even thought to ask… Perhaps some level of public participation and general visibility is appropriate so that some people will be curious enough to “check it out.” …..

Andy, I am very pleased that you are a new member of the DAPNet board…..

I also think that pulling and showing, while not usually done by people who are actually working their animals, also serves us well in a larger context. I have no tolerance for competitive showmanship, but I find most draft animal people to have some appreciation for the craft. It isn’t up to us to dismiss the poor examples set by others, it is up to us to set better examples, for the public, as well as for those pullers and showers who may inadvertently be watering down our efforts.

I actually think that the working draft community has swollen in the last 20 years…. in fact I know it has, despite all odds against us. Of course the pulls and plowing matches, and carriage classes get way more attention, but I don’t think they get many spectators who actually think they might do that some day. On the other hand, I know that a majority of the folks who come to workshops relating to performing real work with draft animals are serious about trying it out. It may be a small group, but there is a much higher retention rate.

As far as novices on this site….. if you go to the “Quick Links” drop-down menu at the top of the page sometime, then to “Who’s Online”, you will see many more visitors who are not logged in then there are those logged in. I think that many viewers are satisfied to lurk and just read what is being written here. A good way to engage those folks is for administrators, or other interested members, to start more discussion threads, post more provocative topics, use more of the many categories that are set up on this forum……. Believe me I know that it takes a lot of time, but it can be done (I have over 2500 posts to my name as a result).

This is a great site, but we may have been idling for a while. There is a strong core group here that could take Andy’s comments to heart and use this site more aggressively to develop community, as well as keeping alive the reason we keep coming here, to learn from each other. Some times all we have time for is to read a few posts, and to post or reply to a pertinent thread. If we want to continue to breath fresh life into this forum and the surrounding community, then we may need to stretch a little bit more time, and ramp up the volume, and broaden the content…….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 36679 wrote:

…… To some extent, we are preaching to the choir on this site, which is something I think about from time to time…..

Who else can you preach to. I am so friggin’ bored with trying to open other people’s eyes. I love sharing with people who are enthused and engaged. I have a huge problem with FB precisely because there are so many people coming to the table that you can’t help but have a watered down discussion.

There is no other site like this one, as far as detailed discussion of the aspects of working draft animals. But I gotta say it isn’t magic. We worked hard in the beginning to create a site that set a high bar and sought contributors who would post pertinent information….. and we have had to send a few (less than 10) packing because of bad behavior….. but we never censored or edited a single post (even the nasty ones…we just dealt with them).

But those early trials were used as learning opportunities, and I am very proud of how you all have worked to maintain the level of serious and respectful interaction.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

My heart goes out to you Geoff…………….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Ed, I e-mailed you, Joe, and Brad. about this. I think a conference call would work great. Joe has said he will submit this to the Licensing Board for us.

I’m available most evenings……

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Tom has a great idea. I am willing to work out more details with Joe Zorzin, the Farm School’s forester, Bradley, and Ed, so that we can have more concise wording to explain how this workshop will address issues relating to both forestry and draft animals.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have two tricks I use in second cut, or a field with thatch or left clippings, where cut grass is clogging my mower. First I tip the cutter bar back, lifting the points of the guards. Also I keep my foot on the lift pedal, and when I see a bunch forming I give the bar a little bump to shake the grass free.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Jen Judkins 36551 wrote:

Did I miss something, again? What’s happening in VA in October? Are you heading to the HHFF?

http://www.facebook.com/events/137671766375347/?ref=ts

Biological Woodsmen’s Week, October 15-21. New Meadow Farm 863 Lotts Rd. Raphine, VA

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Beautiful………….:o

Carl

[Carl Russell]

So to follow Mitch’s “Go light and go often”, I’ll add “Oats’ll get you in the ditch, corn’ll get you out”.

Feeding, equipment, and muscling will all help, but they won’t be as important as practice, experience, and leadership. This exercise, like most with animals has less to do with them learning, or getting strong, it has to do with you learning what they can and cannot do, and what it takes to get them to do what you want. If you want to be pulling wood this winter with them, then you need to get started right now. All you need is a whiffle-tree, hook, and a choker chain to get started. This all has much more to do with how you use the lines, and how you direct the use of their energy, then how much weight to hook them to. A person can tire a horse on a light load just as effectively as on a heavy load, if they are not paying attention to details of using live power to move weight.

And yes, they can be hyper on oats, but when you get fluent with the exercise, and you are thinking ahead of the beasts, hyper can be a real asset in the woods.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hang in there Geoff…… I can’t even imagine the recovery that you, or Scott for that matter, have to go through. Sorry I(we) can’t be of more help….

Be well, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I will actually be concentrating on showing ways that horses can be used to effectively complete forest management objectives…. While that may include different logging and skidding techniques, it will be entirely geared toward the forestry objectives laid out by the forester. We will all go through the process to determine the most effective way to apply living power to the objectives, which may include the use of different types of equipment, skid trail lay out, felling patterns, and timber product processing for production, to utilize horses to their fullest, given the particulars of that harvesting situation.

I’m looking forward to it, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Unfortunately we will miss it….. sounds like a great time…. as usual:o.

That is our anniversary weekend….. AND it’s the Tunbridge World’s Fair, so we are doubled up already.

We wish you all good weather and fun times.

Carl & Lisa

[Carl Russell]

I too have use cattle to clear brush for years. I find that steers especially are bolder about eating whatever they find. I have used both holstein and jerseys and found they do equally well. I just ignore the bellowing, I get the same crap from my kids:p.

One aspect that I particularly like about the larger animals is the hoof action. What they don’t eat they tread into the ground. If there is any dead wood or debris, it gets busted and incorporated. I have never had a goat on the farm. Cattle have been a very effective tool in my land reclamation.

Carl

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