[Carl Russell]

It is hard to say about the real estate exchange. I know folks who have been trying to buy land for several years. It is always a gamble to sell what you have for a reasonable price, and then also be able to buy another property at a reasonable price.

However some of the intangibles that you mention, being closer to family, and having enough land and resources to provide for yourself may have much more value in the future than they currently do. So even if the exact economics of selling and then buying don’t add up, you may make out better in the long run.

Even though having some economic reliance on community can be a good thing, I wholeheartedly believe that external costs will eventually favor those of us who have access to resources, and the skills and equipment to utilize them, on our own properties. Having family nearby can mean many things, but when access to resources becomes as valuable as I think it will be, having family nearby will also be valuable, as we will be able to contribute to their well-being directly with goods, and they will be able to contribute materially to our operations.

….. Always trust your initial intuition….. and…. good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 37329 wrote:

I had the same question/comment on the harness (i.e. what’s the point?). I wonder if these harnesses preceded today’s d-ring and at some point someone thought they could get the weight off the neck by putting in a back pad? ….

If you remember from our research, it seems as though the ring in the harness had many manifestations that were for apparently other reasons, like shortening the required length of leather, or for easier repair, and that some harnesses that are not designed to hold weight on the jack saddle still have one, even without a d-ring.

All of these different features all seem to have converged “by accident” into what is now known as the NE D-ring Harness. The truth of the matter is that I’m sure most folks never really cared whether the tongue weight was carried on the neck or on the back. As is true with most things, it still gets the work done.

Obviously a correctly adjusted backpad and harness will afford the horses the ability to hold tongue weight on the back, but if the harness is not adjusted correctly, or hitched too loosely then the backpad is useless, and the weight is on the neck again.

I would have to say that one of the primary reasons for having backpad and belly band is for adjusting draft angle. This again is only a matter of teamster concern, as there are a lot of horses out there working with poor draft angle.

In the modern context, efficiencies like draft angle and tongue weight are more appropriate than they were a hundred years ago when horses came a dime a dozen, and every Tom, Dick, and Harry was working them with whatever got the job done.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Land trusts are good for getting outside funding to offset the development value versus the farm use value. This way the owners can get more compensation for their life-time investment, and the new purchaser/farmer can pay a more reasonable price that reflects the value that they want from owning the land. Presumably the easement preventing future development fits into the long term view.

Another mechanism to consider is Life-estate. This gives the owners some security related to the investment in their home, allowing them full access to the home for as long as they can function there. This CAN reduce purchase price as well, and provides the older couple with a place to live without monthly rental expenses.

One thing to remember is that the older couple cannot have significant liquid assets IF for some reason they need Medicare. Life-estate is acceptable as they don’t have the cash on hand, rather have a nontransferable asset that provides them with living space. It also requires that the new owner has a familial-like relationship with them as these types of transitions can be somewhat intimate.

Good luck Jay, it is a worthy endeavor, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Looks great John….. I look forward to seeing it with logs behind..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 37246 wrote:

Got ’em, thanks. Page 70 for anyone whose interested (http://www.meadersupply.com/Publish/catalogs/tack_catalog/Tack-Catalog.pdf). I can’t stand the newer style clips. I have gone through 2 sets in less than 5 years.

George

Just for reference…..

I have a full set of old ones, one is a bit worn. One good set on the harnesses. And one brand new set waiting to be used. Still can’t bare the thought of selling any :rolleyes:.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Unfortunately GMC has used a reference to a notion that oxen are traditionally slaughtered when retired. While this may be true in some areas or historic periods when food was scarce, there is no validity to that assumption.

Individuals make their own decision about how to retire a team. I for one have never felt that my working animals owed me a thing. Some sell their old ones to meat markets, some bury them on the farm.

I think GMC has done a great job at having a community-wide discussion, and their choice may be perfect for the small school. Having financial affluence, like a school might have, does give some people the option to retire animals to the pasture, but since GMC is trying very hard, given the educational restraints, to run a “sustainable” farm, it is entirely reasonable to set an example of how components of a farm must contribute efficiently to the bottom line. Feeding them as pets is certainly an option, and may satisfy a certain bottom line, but most small farms don’t have resources to support that.

I have killed and buried every working animal that I have retired. A respectful burial was my choice. I could also see composting them and adding the nutrients back to the farm, which may be my next solution.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Last time I was at Meaders I picked up a few….. good ones, not cheesy knock-offs. I bought the last ones in the store, but I would check with them.

I have a secret stash, that may have a surplus, of old but not worn-out, that I can evaluate if you don’t find better ones. (Kind of like bridle chains….. I’m not inclined to let them go, but I might find a few)

You want 4?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The animals could be killed and composted to be used as soil amendments on the farm where they worked too.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@hunterbrooksfarm 36877 wrote:

….. I had her stand there and didn’t let her start off untill she was perfectly still. While waiting I had given her a few good girls, and rubbed/patted her hind quarter…..

It sounds like you had a great day.

It is good that you are looking to reward your horse for doing what you want.

This is my perspective on whoa;

It is a common misconception that Whoa is a command.

I think it is important to understand the basic communication that horses use, pressure and release. In basic round-pen training, the pressure is positively responded to by the horse moving away…… Well they are moving to get to a safe place with no pressure. The reward that you give for complying to your pressure is that you release them, and allow them to stand, safe, without pressure. Because you instigated the pressure, then you also instigate the reward. The safety is something that you have given them. It is the beginning of communication. Horses learn on the release.

When a horse is safe, it stands. If it doesn’t feel safe it will not stand. There is a built in reward system. Pressure (Command to move, execute, respond) and Release (Reward, free, safe, stand).

If we think of Whoa as a command, and we apply pressure to ensure compliance, then we miss a great opportunity to use the language that the horse innately understands. We also confuse the horse, because to them standing is the absence of pressure. They are always looking for some indication that they have been given a release. Petting and praise may make them comfortable, but they are not the same as releasing them from the pressure of your initiative.

Using Whoa as a release/reward can have profound results in effective communication with your horse. Step… whoa…. (reward for successful execution)….. Back….whoa…(reward).

Don’t think of her standing as part of the logging project, think of it as a reward for getting to that point… release her so that you can focus on hitching the chain….. she need know nothing about what you are doing, only that she has been released, given a reward to stand comfortably and wait for your next command.

My horses don’t stand unattended because I have told them to….. they stand because I have released them from the pressure of my working commands. They appreciate that I give them that reward, and they wait for me to give them more to do, because of that.

A horse can find safety on its own, but that kind of safety is fleeting…. waiting for the next pressure. If they find that they can trust a protector, or a leader, to give them safety, they will be attentive to that leader’s initiative. In my mind, using this to our advantage is the basis for the teamster’s craft.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

372XP….. frickin’ good saw Geoff…:cool:

That’s all there is to it, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@hunterbrooksfarm 36854 wrote:

…… I think she needs repetition …….

She’s getting repetition…… just not what you want.

Two things…

.. never hitch a horse that won’t stand …you need to break the cycle of errant repetition. The horse is telling you that she doesn’t understand what you are expecting from her, so you need to change that. Otherwise she will learn to do exactly what she is doing every time you do what you are doing now..

… and Whoa means stand….. there is no reason to complicate your commands with subtleties of language.

If you search under Stand, Standing, or Horse Standing at the top of the page, you will find several great older threads dealing in detail with these very issues.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Welcome to parenthood Andy…. your life will never be the same…. good…. all good…

Enjoy, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Ed, horses shed their frogs from time to time…. If he is not limping I wouldn’t worry. I would also not trim it…….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Andy, I think it is important to think of grazing as a soil management tool, not just an animal feeding tool. Making small paddocks certainly rations the feed, but more importantly it helps to spread out the nutrient cycling so that the grazing doesn’t deplete fertility in one area and build it up in others.

To that end when the regrowth falls behind consumption, it is legitimate to start feeding your animals from other sources. This way the impact from keeping animals on the site is minimized by the fact that you are importing nutrients and continuing to distribute them with the animals.

The other reason to start feeding them is that if they do clip it down too far, then the desirable species will have depleted stores in the spring, which will give advantage to your undesirables.

If your desire is to have your land feed your animals for a longer growing season, fertility is a very big component to that. Taking measures to utilize this growing season and your rotation to import nutrients may add cost now, but will pay dividends in the future. Getting all you can out of what is there now can actually set you back on attaining the long term objective……. I know this from experience….. I have seen the results of both choices….. which is not altogether a bad result……. seeing is believing.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Droverone 36725 wrote:

Substantial and explicit guidelines that carry enormous disciplinary penalties and event organizers with ethical and morale conviction to enforce them. The best way to cure the problem is to make it monetarily prohibitive for participants to violate the statute………

The primary pulling association in our area has strict standards for in the ring. Three hits. They enforce it with strong moral conviction. The judge also enforces a drug policy. This is a self enforced decision that came into being during the last ten years. However it has no authority outside of the ring….. and you know, I’m not going to support that level of policing because I don’t want to invite it upon myself.

I realize that habits die hard, and just a few bad apples can spoil the bunch, but if associations like this one can make these changes, then I think it can spread. The teamsters that consistently bring outlaws into the ring don’t get nearly as much respect from their peers as they think they do.

My story before about the third place cattle had some other aspects to it. When I showed my working oxen at the fair, Mark was a young teen 4Her. He also had a very nice pair of Holsteins. We could not compete against each other because of age, but he was an exceptional teamster and showman, our cattle were pretty even, and we struck up a good friendship. Because I worked my cattle, and didn’t pull them, I was always kind of looked over closely by the puller/show crowd, which he was, and still is, close to. He was always kind of sly about the way he showed appreciation for what I did with mine, and loved to look over logging pictures that I had displayed by the stall.

When I went into the pulling ring with logging cattle, hitched by myself, and walked away from an unsuccessful mediocre load of concrete with my head high, there were a lot of looks that could be described as a mixture of fright and confusion. I guess I may have been too comfortable with my manhood. Anyway, I am sure that he was one who was at least moderately affected by my example. This year after the pull when I visited his stall to voice my appreciation for his cattle and his performance with them he showed me pictures of him logging with them.

Change comes slow. Respect is a fickle fiat. If we want people to change their habits, then we need to show them a different way. And in so doing, we may never change the offenders, but the ones behind them are our real target.

I think that the farmer’s pulls that used to happen when I was very young may be a great way to make some impact. I know it takes a lot of time and effort to pull these kinds of things together, but if working teamsters in local regions could get together every once and a while and put their skills on the line, I think it could be a useful mechanism for building our network, and at the same time setting a better example.

Carl

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