[Carl Russell]

Just came across this interesting pic….. showing a Boston-backer….. with a side strap ring…. and a belly band on the trace…. without a back pad….

Makes me want to speak with these men…… Nicely harnessed and conditioned animals…. I suspect they would be appreciative of the value of combining features..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@boulami 37813 wrote:

……
We already have some vids here which have help some of us. And the resource is right in front of us, everytime we go on DAP…..

Andy, there could be some solid ground covered by organizing some of what has already been linked on this site. http://www.draftanimalpower.com/forumdisplay.php?60-Education&order=desc
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/forumdisplay.php?66-Web-Links-to-Articles-Movie-Videos-and-Web-Sites
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?740-Harnessing-the-Powers-of-Youtube-for-Good&highlight=oxen+youtube

One of the resources that we had hoped DAPNet.org would provide would be a library of such links. Rather than trying to undertake production costs and marketing, pulling together existing videos and Webinars could build momentum, further enhancing the value of DAPNet to connect folks who are looking for these resources with those who are presenting them….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jay, any forester can get you enrolled in UVA. The application date is September 1st, so you have a lot of time to get that together. If the land will be subdivided then you should have that done before you apply, as the subdivision may cause additional costs for development in the future.

While any forester can write the plan, I doubt you will find many who will entertain your idea of an animal power based harvesting plan.

If you would like any help from me, while Grafton is not close, I charge $50/hour for forestry consultation, and I have a fair amount of experience in what you are asking about.

Also, if you attend the workshop in Athol http://www.draftanimalpowernetwork.org/dapnet-events we will be spending a lot of time discussing the intersection of modern conventional forestry and the realistic application of animal power….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Excellent idea…

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 37754 wrote:

…… The point here being that nature, in my option, is not always sustainable unless it adapts (or is allowed to adapt) to new challenges that will always present themselves in our ever changing world. …..

…I recognize that if one says that change is natural, than any change might put forth as “natural” and possibly “sustainable.”……

I was also thinking about this today. Nothing is truly sustainable without change. However, there is rarely a complete and abrupt change without significant transfer of what was there before. In other words, the building blocks of change do not come out of thin air, they come from the system, or species that failed.

With this in mind, sustainability must have some premise that doesn’t just preserve resources, it must leave enough of the existing system unchanged so that there are as many as possible options left for the future.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Jim Ostergard 37744 wrote:

….. can you elaborate on holistic planning a bit? ….

http://holisticmanagement.org/

Check out this website….. great resource.

[Carl Russell]

@JaredWoodcock 37739 wrote:

…. We used holistic management planning to dial down our quality of life goals and it put our finances into perspective. We have basically adapted our farming and our financial goals to fit where we want to be……..

…..I realized that we are selling our family as much as we are selling our products …….

Lisa and I also used the Holistic Management process when we first decided to take this journey. We have referred to it many times, and it has been validating.

When making these types of decisions it helps to “dial down”(as Jared says) on the basic parameters of you desired changes. Another process that we use is dowsing, or intuitive decision making. Rather than searching hit-or-miss for something to come close to our basic needs we list what we want, then “ask” to decide where or when it can happen. For example we found our water source by setting basic goals of a year-round source, good quality, uphill from house, close enough to the surface to reach with an excavator. A friend used a map of our property dissected into quadrants, and using his dowsing skills found a spot that met the criteria. When we dug we got what we searched for.

This same process can be used when thinking about relocating your home. When the perfect property has been described a dowser, or yourself, can determine if such a property exists, and by using a map of the region where you want to live, that property may be found. We had some friends that used this method, drove up to the farm they located, which was not for sale, and approached the owner. It took a few years to work out the details, but eventually they worked out a deal.

Intuition can also be used to decide if a particular property will work out, if one catches your eye.

I have a strong personal belief in my own intuition, and do not rely on dowsing to validate that. I am not discounting number crunching, or the considerations of other people completely, but when I am trying to make a decision, I just let my internal compass direct me. When I was younger I caught a lot of grief from people who tried to get me to justify my choices, but as time has gone on, I have learned to just let that slide off. When I know a path is right, I take it. When it doesn’t feel right, I stop and turn….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Sad, Kevin. You are a brave an honest man to share that with us, so I believe that means you will come out of this experience with an enriched capacity for life. The light shines brightest in the deepest dark. Stay close to your family, and carry this child in your heart.

My thoughts are with you, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I was thinking today that Sustainable Agriculture could be generally described as “implementing practices that improve the sustainability of an agricultural operation within the natural environment where it is located”.

Regardless of the particular pasture rotations, or energy sources, or crops that we each choose, I think that this is what we are all trying to do.

I realize that this is a bit circular, and it doesn’t address the fact that it allows for a wide array of definitions (Some people believe that petroleum and GMOs are necessary to sustain agriculture…….), but it seems to describe the concept in motion, as we have acknowledged that the crux of the issue is elusive, so making an effort toward an ideal is really what it comes down to…. and GMC is doing a damn good job of it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Dr mowers are designed very well, but you really can’t stop everything from coming forward. The Dr I have can be off-set to the side. My forecart has a solid backing so it will block anything thrown forward, but the heavy rubber mats hanging in front of the mower does a great job.

I had a piece of wood about 4″ dia, and about 18″ long come up and bounce off my mare’s ass. I suppose it could have hurt her, but she just jumped and pranced for about 15 feet, then settled back into her normal gait.

It is nasty loud work, and while I have done brusk with the horses, I find it works really well in anything from heavy grass to meadow sweet. Last spring I had a heavy hay that I couldn’t get cause it was mature too early, and the weather was just too wet. I mowed it down to about 4″ in one pass……..

I couldn’t afford two of them, and find one does a great job. But they do pull pretty easy, so in the right going they could be pulled two at a time…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Countymouse 37700 wrote:

……… i also think there will be some agreement a cross the board. For example, I don’t see how anyone could argue that continuous corn production, with the its heavy fertilizer and herbicide use, and poorer yields when compared to rotation, is sustainable……..

…..I feel that it is important to figure out a way to make practices that benefit the earth as a whole be profitable……

I think there is more agreement on what is NOT sustainable, than on what is….. which is the root of Geoff’s question.

As far as profitability, on our farm we make it clear that our clients pay more for the food they buy from us precisely because of the investments we make in the environment of our farm and community. We purposefully keep our production down so that we are not at the mercy of a fickle marketplace. If we can’t sell it at our price, we can keep it, and eat it ourselves, protecting our investment by not devaluing it just to sell it.

I think what Mitch says is the absolute truth….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

It is interesting to note that the basis for modern agriculture, moreover society in general, is to control, reduce, eliminate environmental pressures…….. how sustainable is that???

I will say that I think sustainable human life has to do with a sustainable rate of consumption of requisite natural resources. So the use of any finite reserve cannot truly be sustainable. Also there needs to be an evaluation of how responsible we are with our consumption……. should we be making electricity at the current rate, regardless of the source, just so that we can run street lights all night, or air conditioners, etc…

There must be a reliance on naturally restorative processes of Earth-based biological systems.

It also must have something to do with protection of certain resources like water and air.

So I’m thinking that sustainable agriculture must be flexible, using natural nutrient and energy cycling systems, and protective, or non-destructive, and restorative.

In my mind that means using draft animals and human power. Growing a diversity of crops and livestock, at least within communities. Creating local (within walking distance) food systems. Accepting production that matches available fertility and nutrient reserves. Using inputs that are locally sourced and naturally available, including mechanical and structural infrastructure. Incorporating systems that can be maintained with minimal energy or technical expertise. It means grass based livestock operations. It means ecologically diverse methods of utilizing the landscape, including forest products, especially in areas where the natural ecotype is forest and all agricultural activities dedicate certain energy to preventing forest regrowth.

It is definitely a rabbit hole…… I have been working for nearly 30 years, and I find myself a captive of my place in time and space. I am a long way down that road, but cell phones, computers, trucks, trailer, atv, are all symptoms of the culture I live in, so I make compromises. These compromises tend to be our Achilles heel, because if I ask for compromises then why can’t big AG?

Also there are arguments that suggest that what I laid out above cannot begin to feed the world population now, so that is unsustainable……. so maybe we need to think that controlling consumption is elitist, or worse….

So back to the oblique nature of the concept…. Life on Earth is sustainable because of the unique nature of the planet to absorb energy from the sun and cycle that through a diverse ever-changing interacting mass of biological communities, none of which are ultimately sustainable in a continuous form or process……including humans….

I for one am satisfied with a concept that I strive for, accepting that I am not able to truly attain the ideal, but working to set an example of an attempt. It is hard maintaining self respect when spouting concrete or rigid standards when you cannot adhere to them yourself. This is one of the reasons many folks in our shoes have tried to stop using the term sustainable.

I don’t over-use the term in describing my lifestyle. I tend to focus on ecological integrity, and Earth-based systems, etc….

Happy Thanksgiving……

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@near horse 37696 wrote:

I think that we need to struggle with discussing and even trying to define “sustainable” or stop using term if it’s too nebulous…..

I think the ability to change with the environmental pressures is a big part of the definition, and it is a big part of why it is so hard to effectively define. Flexibility, especially to the point of evolving to another form, or successional state is what makes Life on Earth sustainable. No organism, ecosystem, or process is ultimately “sustainable” without the ability to change to meet the changing environmental pressures.

Moreover that also must mean that there are some reserves of fertility, or nutrients, or clean water and air, something available to support the activity of living.

In simple terms it is defined as able to be maintained at a certain rate or level. So choosing the rate of consumption, or utilization of resources must have something to do with effective use of the term.

Also in ecology it is defined as conserving an ecological balance by avoiding a depletion of natural resources. However I think that avoidance is a bit inadequate. I think it has to be “restorative” of natural resources….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think we have to be mature enough to accept that “Sustainable” is an amorphous concept. After all, the purest example of “Sustainable” would presumably be Earth, where every ecosystem, every species, reaches limits, and either ceases to function, or changes into something slightly different.

So to come up with a list of criteria, or a schematic diagram for a “Sustainable” operation would be a futile exercise, in my mind. I personally don’t accept that financial economic sustainability is a reasonable component of the equation. Financial economics is an entirely human concept, and we have created artificial fiat so that we can readjust the baseline to fit the outcome, justifying any system that touts “Efficiency” as if that is the closest we can humanly get to sustainable.

I choose (like Robert) to look at sustainability in ecological terms. Realistically there is a component of economics here, but it has to do with energy and resources, not money. I think of myself, and our current human population, as a successional stage of ecological evolution. I/we have the same choice as a plant would have. Do I consume as much as I can from my site until I cannot sustain myself? However being human I can actually observe the plant, and make another choice. How can I live within the ecological parameters of this site to sustain myself as long as possible?

For my entire life I have seen gaping holes in our human cultural attempt to live on this planet. With all of our intellect, and observational skills, we have made choices that make a plant withering in a drought look like a genius. I cannot argue with a Vegan about the unsustainability of modern meat production, especially since most of them cannot believe that there are people who actually raise animals on grass, with dignity, and reverence for the life that sustains them….. However, the argument I got was that we just need to stop growing plants to feed to animals, and start growing plants to feed to humans……. So what changes in that equation to make modern Ag any more sustainable? Not much to my eye….

I think sustainable ag as GMC teaches, for example, has to do primarily with a concept of growing food and resources, working on a landscape with limited inputs, reducing financial burdens, protecting productive resources, and limiting output to sustain the reserves. As Jason Rutledge says, “You can’t sustain a decline”….. It by no means is the ultimate sustainability equation, but it incorporates basic ecological principles that, if practiced on a broad scale, at least won’t drive us into resource debt we are in now.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have a few….. what diameters are you interested in? …. And how do you intend to attach them to the chains, hammer locks, clevis, weld??? I haven’t had time to dig very deep, so my stores are not abundant, but I should be able to part with two…..

Carl

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