[Carl Russell]

@Mark Cowdrey 38708 wrote:

“CE”‘s?
Thanks,
Mark

Conservation Easements….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jay, I will forward this on to a young man who has been in contact with me looking for GOL training. He’s also looking to get more experienced with horse-logging, so I think he would be very interested in this offering.

Thanks for putting this on, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Nice Ed….. thanks.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The Lyme Timber Company LP is a private timberland investment management organization (TIMO) that focuses on the acquisition and sustainable management of lands with unique conservation values. Since its founding in 1976, the Company has followed a disciplined and value oriented approach to investing in forestland and rural real estate throughout the US. The Company’s current portfolio includes 475,000 acres of forestland located in New York, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Maine, Massachusetts, Tennessee, Virginia, Delaware, and Louisiana.

This is a perfect example of the conventional system. The primary focus here is creating a portfolio product that is attractive to investors. Part of that is a certain financial return. Another part is the “Greenwashing”, which supported by FSC and SFI allows for many conventional impacts that can be justified based on the available common technology, and the assumptions that have been laid out before in this thread.

On the ground these methods have some improved results over slash and burn, but the certification adds costs which are ultimately made up again through economy of scale, and the utilization of landscape-scale application of standardized silvicultural prescriptions, which are based on maximizing tree growth for economic gain, not necessarily ecological integrity. In these scenarios, a little dab-‘ll-do-ya. A few more waterbars, some buffer zones, an easement or two, and voila “You’re sustainable”…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Eli 38671 wrote:

Now that I slept on it I need to get her relaxed. I think I will warm her up harness her and hook to the cart then brush her and talk to her and get her to relax and get the feel of the cart with out the stress of pulling it then unhook her groom her then put her away this should help with any anxiety the cart is causing . I almost never lunge my horse on a long line I usually lunge for a few minuets changing direction often to get them thinking. When we trained her to ride she was taught to yeald to pressure you can basically move her in any direction with one finger so pulling goes against everything we have taught her for the last year. This my tentative plan let me know what you think. Thank You. Eli.
P.S. I have to remember that progress isn’t measured by how far I get the horse to move but by how prepared she is to move. I am training a horse not moving a cart.

I am just going to give some feed-back on what I am reading here…

I agree that you need to get her relaxed. I see no reason why there should be stress associated with pulling the cart, other than you apparently are willing to accept that concept, and could be bringing that to the equation.

Brushing, I think should be done before harnessing, not only as a way of calming, but as a way to revisit all of her vulnerable points….. reinforcing trust. Getting her to stand quietly hitched to the conveyance will teach her nothing about moving it.

I also think that working your horse should not be to get her thinking, but to get her following your lead. If you are leaving it up to her to intellectualize the situation, you are inadvertently abdicating a portion of your leadership.

She may well yield to pressure, but that is against all of her instinctual motivations. There should be an acknowledgement of this by reward.

She wants to move. She needs to move. This is her innate drive. I think she does not trust that she has permission to move forward. Possibly because she can’t differentiate between the pressure of your initiative, and the reward for allowing it.

Pressure and release. Pressure for action, release for reward. This should translate to bit pressure as well as finger pressure in moving. Contact on the bit for moving forward, released contact to stand. Holding a horse back to keep them from moving is a common tendency, but sends a deeply confusing message to the animal.

Moreover, I think it is important to differentiate between training a horse, and communicating with a horse. If you take this on as an exercise in getting a horse accustomed to the components of the situation, as an intellectual exercise for her, you will not make as much headway as if you use it as an exercise in communication. Getting the horse to trust your leadership, you ability to communicate effectively with her, so that she follows you into any situation of your choosing, it what I believe the objective should be.

Keep up the good work, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I feed a bale a day to each horse…… approx 35-40 pounds……. religiously…… sometimes in deep cold I throw them an extra bale…1/2 each. Of course I am working them fairly regularly and feed grain to support that, so they do get more energy in their diet than just my rationed allowance of hay. ($$$$…. tight-wad that I am:eek:)

I use a quart can ( tomato juice) that hold about 2# and feed 4# in AM, 4# at noon, and 2# at night.

Truthfully, I often work days at home that don’t start that early, but extend into afternoon-early evening witout stopping at noon, so I may just feed grain in AM, and then again at PM. That also means I may play with the hay ration too, giviing them a bit more early, but working through the mddle of the day with less in their bellies.

There is a factor to the energy available in the grain. Oats are more like the pasta the night before the big run, more available for direct use during exertion. Corn is more likely to be for condition, the overall energy due to fitness. Thus the oats into the ditch, the corn out.

Like Fogish suggests feeding grain after the animals have eaten some hay will help in digestion by slowing down the movement of grain through the gut, and disperses it within the ration of hay.

The convention to use grain to maintain body condition is also related to the fact that working animals on grass tend to have much faster digestion, and need to be fed more to keep them comfortable during work. Feeding hay slows down the digestion, but also reduces available energy. So feeding concentrates helps to replace body condition lost due to exertion, but also makes up for the less energetic feed.

Horses can be fed enough high quality hay to keep them in good condition. Traditionally that hay was fed to dairy and meat animals, but that was also in part because horses were being fed grain already to supplement their hay, so horse hay has always been more of a filler than quality feed.

Horses that are cultivating, or other light or moderate work can work pretty well with a belly full of hay. Horses that are being driven long distances at a moderate rate of speed, or horses that are being required to exert a high degree of effort, do so much better with less in their belly….. think about moving wood in a wheelbarrow after Thanksgiving dinner……or running a marathon after eating a huge breakfast….

Using grain as a staple feed is unnecessary, and can be dangerous to the animal’s healthy. Using the way you feed your horse to reflect the way you work your horse and what you expect out of him/her is part of the art of husbandry.

All of this is to say that feeding whole corn vs. cracked or crimped probably has miniscule effect. I used to be able to get steamed flaked corn, which is the whole kernel heated and smooshed. It was suggested to me as much more digestible…….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The old timers preferred whole corn, as it was reportedly good for breaking off sharp points on teeth.

They also said, “oats will get you in the ditch, and corn will get you out.”

Feeding corn will not increase your protein as much as it will increase fat.

I agree that horse should not need grain unless being worked. It was convention that all horses were worked, so many folks refer to the need to feed horses grain as a regular ration.

I feed an Organic Select Grains, which is basically oats, soybeans, and cracked corn, 10% protein. I ad a 50# bag of cracked corn to 2 bags of the select grain.

I only feed grain intermittently when they aren’t working, for ice cream. When I am working them I usually feed about 10-15 pounds per day, for energy.

The real reason that grain is important for the working horse is to keep their bellies from being too full during work. A horse fed on grass, or hay, will work just fine, but for heavy work, a full belly can be detrimental. Feeding more grain and less hay before and during work, and then more hay and less grain after work is the practice I follow. 2/5 (Daily ration) grain & 1/4 (DR) hay @ AM, 2/5 (DR) grain & 1/4 (DR) hay @ noon, 1/5 (DR) grain & 1/2 (DR) hay @ PM.

I find horses fed a lot of grain have a lot of energy, sometimes not constructive energy. It takes a good hand to get much work done with horses ramped up on oats and corn (or sweet feed), although if you really want to move some freight, feeding grain will be advantageous. I just play with the ration, and watch them at work, and adjust as I go…….. like tuning the carburetor on a saw:cool:.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 38588 wrote:

….. Do you know off hand how long your bunk is with and without stake pockets?

…….

I really enjoy riding the bobsled with a load of logs and watching the sled pivot under the logs…….

Bunk is 4 foot 6 inches, 5 feet to the outside of the stake pockets.

Bobsledding Logs

It’s 4:30, quarter to five,
on a crisp mid-winter afternoon.
The sun has gone down behind the hill,
and you can see dusk forming in the shadows.

Dry powder snow covers the ground.
The temperature never got above fifteen degrees today,
but working in the sun, you warmed up easily.
Now a slight chill seeps into the dampness of sweat on your shoulders.

The team is ready,
hitched in front of a nice jag of fine straight logs.
Put your coat back on, and check for mislaid tools.
Climb up on the load, gather lines,
brace your feet, and calmly call on your animals.

As the load lurches forward,
puffs of steamy breath float from the horses’ nostrils.
You can feel the weight of the load through your legs,
as the bobsled travels over humps and through hollows.

Hooves thump and squeak,
as chips of ice fly from sharpened caulks.
From below the load comes the jingle of bridle chains,
and as the logs rasp over the frozen snow
they put forth a whine, like from a bow on a fiddle.

Feel that?… That’s the spirit in your soul dancing the bob-sledder’s jig.
” Now we’re logging”.

1998; For Walt Bryan; Farmer horse logger, family man.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Stake pockets are a great way to prevent the bunk from splitting on the ends!!:cool:

Also, possibly drilling a 1/2-3/4 hole to put a peg or rebar into, or the tip of the peevey…..

The aggravation of this phenomenon is enough to take the time to change a few things. Piling snow on the lower side to tip the sled back the other way, or perhaps just leaving a log on the ground as a bumper, or even chaining that outer log back to the sled until you’re ready to chain it on. I’ve used chocks of wood, pieces of limb-wood wedged against the sled, my shovel, hammer…… anything available.

And chain them tight, and check the load often, as frozen logs can make for interesting sledding.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@PeytonM 38530 wrote:

Just wondering what you guys that saw wood all the time are using, stihl, Husky?

I got a trade offer on a Stihl 055 and a 011 for a old snowmobile i have.

One that runs!!!!!:cool:

I have red and black, green, and orange saws. I have a preference for Husky, but most important is finding a saw shop where you can get parts and service that you can count on. New, they are all designed to do the work.

I have several older saws, that I keep around as back-ups, but when I start to get yanked around by an aging saw, I replace it with a new one, no questions asked. You might get started with an used saw, but don’t get distracted by purchase price, the new saw will cut circles around the best deal on an old saw, and you don’t want to be distracted by a failing saw, just cut wood.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 38521 wrote:

Hi Carl:

Thanks for the reply. I will stick with 42″. What is the function of the welded eye pictured in back of your single tree on the main evener?

George

Holding strap…….it was built as a pulling evener, hence all the adjustment holes. It’s heavy, but it won’t break, and I have used the adjustments.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

These are the dimensions for my evener, 42″ on outside center. I like the horses inside the runner tracks, because if/when you are working in deeper snow you will find that the trail is hard packed, but the snow on the edge is deep and soft. A horse that is working hard and stepping too close to that soft edge can slip off, or if pushing really hard they can hyper-extend a leg, or even go down…… All of which I have experienced even with the narrower evener and neck yoke, but I suspect they would occur more often.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks for sharing that Beckah. I too was struck by Ann’s stick-to-it-tiveness. We enjoyed her contributions to the logging weekend here at our farm when we first met her, and were always appreciative of her staunch support of NEAPFD.

She was one of those souls meant to work with horses, and I know that she spent the last 20 years making her life what she wanted it to be. A great example.

RIP Ann, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@PeytonM 38493 wrote:

…… I was like “HOLY CRAP” when I saw Taylor’s horse drawn forwarder. I wondered how much they sold for because in all honesty, they are pretty simple set up as far as building in my eyes accept the grapple, don’t know how much work that would take cause I haven’t been able to look at one closely. ……

US horse-loggers need good fabricators of multifunctional equipment…….. Another good contact would be John Plowden from Maine http://www.plowdenhorselogging.com/ , not so much for logging work, but to build contact around equipment fabrication.

Horses offer some great opportunities to diversify your income. Don’t get stuck thinking you need to specialize, to be a welder, or a farmer, or a horselogger only, you can be all of them……… especially if you use live power.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Tim Harrigan 38438 wrote:

No, I was not thinking live feed. Maybe considered discussion in video format, closer to the give and take on the forum except enhanced with video.

I’m open to it. I was originally just referring to the discussion between me and my apprentice(?), as I want to try to get some of the direct descriptions and logic that I use when covering this with novices, backed up by physical demonstrations.

when I first started with draft horses my mentor went out and got me a green 2yr old to start with
I feel it was the best way to start for me the colt knew nothing and I knew nothing
he showed me how to fit the harness then said go ground drive did that for weeks before he saw we were competent in starting stopping and backing he then showed me how to hitch single to a wagon and said drive if things get hairy just drive I want to find you and the horse together no matter what he also said he didnt care if I AND THE HORSE WRECKED AND DIED HE WANTED TO FIND ME WITH THE COLT AND MY HANDS ON THE LINES the lines have been in my hand ever since
bILL

OMG Bill, that is so true. My dad sat me on a horse and slapped its ass. I bought my first horse (green) because one of my mentors said “If I wanted to learn how to log with a horse, I would buy me a horse, and go logging”.

I know I found competency with horses long before I understood what I think I do now:rolleyes:, so I don’t think that novices should be expected to come all the way up to speed. I also know that folks these days are looking for guidance, and I think it has a lot to do with what Donn was saying about the lack of familial and cultural historical knowledge.

I also expect that my project will not so much lay out a “program”, as much as I hope it will show how I think novices should learn to approach communicating with the working horse.

In the long run it really comes down to never letting go of the lines doesn’t it? Metaphorically and physically, holding on to the lines represents that serious commitment to being a part of the process of getting from here to there……. where ever, and however that ends up being.

Carl

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