[Carl Russell]

@Scott G 39481 wrote:

Just catching up while I’m at Eddie & Jane’s before we had to head up north; couldn’t resist on passing this opportunity to poke on Carl a bit:
“There is obviously some degree of surplus production in any ecosystem”
In a truly functioning ecosystem…there is no surplus, by definition. Only the ebb & flow of other organisms/components that are responsive to the dynamics of that ecosystem.
A Rocky Mtn foresters observations/perspective…WAYAFI…??!! You’ll have to make a trip to the White Mtns to discuss this sooner rather than later. 80P

Oh…. I’m almost compelled to make that trip just to reply in person……. and of course you know the answer… No we’ll have to build a shrine, so when our esteem leader asks WAYAFI? we can all answer in unison….Of Course You Know The Answer…….

So if we hold ecological integrity in high regard, then we find ways that our interaction is in harmony with the

ebb & flow of other organisms/components that are responsive to the dynamics of that ecosystem.

……;)

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@mitchmaine 39307 wrote:

Do we believe that a forest of trees is an ecosystem in and of itself? And that animals live in symbiosis with the forest exchanging carbon and oxygen for mutual gain? And then that any disruption in the forest ecology is natural as long as what ever the resulting “damage” is left to decompose and become part of the forest still.
Then it would be safe to assume that any time wood or other plant material was removed from that system, it would compromise the sustainability of said forest.So, any logging would represent an impact., low or high. The minute we enter a woodlot and extract limbwood, we are imposing impact and have subtracted from the natural system and have compromised it……

There is obviously some degree of surplus production in any ecosystem that builds reserves, or is transported away as animal flesh, reduced by fire, or lost due to erosion and other factors, otherwise life on Earth would be a series of diminishing returns. This is how we have become as affluent as we are, by utilizing that productive capacity for our own benefit. There are examples, such as the Black Forest in Germany, where for generations, every stick that fell was gathered for fuel, and now there are significant inadequacies in the ecosystem there.

It can be rather ubiquitous, as Mitch says

normal in each parameter is so different,

. That is why I focus on the economic motivation and measurement as the difference. Looking specifically at numeric values of tree growth in terms of highest financial gain, the role trees play in the ecosystem is diminished, or even ignored.

While thinking of an ecosystem as an organism may be far-fetched for some, there are suggestions that organisms are micro-ecosystems in their own right. Organisms are hosts to a multitude of other biota that coexist using the organism as the foundation for their function. There are feed-back loops where the interaction between biotic groups, and between them and the host organism that create stimuli and stresses that test, and maybe enhance, the resilience of the host.

In the forest, trees provide the micro-climate, the skeletal structure, the organic material that changes the landscape to be more favorable for a diverse gathering of biota. This grouping of organisms is very different than in other environments, and the way that trees grow is the primary factor that makes it different. There are a multitude of feed-back loops between these organisms, but they all come back to what trees provide to each group, either directly or indirectly.

I like to discuss Armelaria because it exemplifies the basics of the forest ecosystem in the Northeast. It needs trees, or the debris from trees, to grow. It has the capacity to parasitize living trees, or to live as a decomposer on dead and down trees. A tree grows, it is weakened by exposure to pests, or perhaps has some genetic predisposition that prevents it from thriving, Armelaria is present testing this tree by living on the sap flowing through cambium at the stump, forces combine, and the tree dies. Armelaria has not only provided itself with more habitat, but it has also create habitat for millions of other decomposers, or other biota that can use dead trees. It has also reduced competition for surrounding trees by creating an opening in the cover. It has also taken out of the gene pool a tree that could not sustain the pressures on it, making way for other trees that may have better genetic make-up. And it has contributed to the enhanced growth of other trees by causing this tree to become part of the biomass and nutrients that will provide resources for its neighbors.

As I mentioned before, this organism causes serious economic harm in some of our most prized hardwood species. Because of that, measures are taken to reduce its occurrence and viability in our forests. So here we have an organism that is one of the natural forest enhancers, yet modern economic concerns cause us to devalue it, and to try to compete with it…… and this is just one of the immeasurable components that make the forest a forest.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think it will make things a lot easier to understand when folks have to access DAP.com through a DAPNet website. Then it will be clearer that this forum is presented by this larger (context) organization. Not that one would HAVE to be a DAPNet member, but that it would be presented under the umbrella of the official organization. I think this will also clarify for some, how their membership in DAPNet is appropriate to the use of DAP.com.

I also think that the monetary requirement, while fiscally responsible, is also about creating another filter that would require a human to perform, so that posting members could be mechanically screened by whether or not they could complete a financial transaction. The $1 minimum is just that, some financial transaction that separates you from a robot spammer. It will be interesting to me to see how well that works. Those spammers obviously seem to be able to make some money doing what they do…. somehow, and I know that sometimes it appears that a real human actually sets up the accounts, then at a later date the robot takes over with its electronic onslaught. I wonder if $1 will be enough to stop them from trying???

When does the fundraising begin? And, is there a particular link to respond specifically to this initiative?

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 39404 wrote:

…… as you mentioned I get a premium for 18s and 20s.

Yep, you will just have to figure out the best combo of long and short logs. Another way I get the logs farther forward is to give the horses about 5 heel links ahead of the evener. It means that I have a longer pole, but I can roll my neck yoke to shorten it, lengthening the heel chains, or vice versa. I do lose some degree of lift, but the added forward load more than makes up for it.

@Does’ Leap 39404 wrote:

…I don’t normally block wood off my bobsled on my yarding road. This was my way of remedying my poor judgement regarding the amount of draft on a mostly dirt road….

This is a perpetual learning curve….

@Does’ Leap 39404 wrote:

…. I will block off some wood at times before the last hill up to my woodshed. However, I think with half mile plus skids adding those extra couple logs makes sense even if I have to block some off as the bottom of the hill is only 75 ft from my woodshed. After my I split my wood, I move it short distances with a 1/3 chord rack that goes on the bucket of my tractor – so this is an easy jaunt.
…..

That sounds pretty convenient….. I don’t have the tractor, but I have gone back later with a cart and skidded dropped logs the rest of the way to the landing….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Tim Harrigan 39412 wrote:

George, I just figured this out earlier today and then saw your question. In this example I will double quote mink and your earlier post.

I always thought that link was for Multi-quoting that one post…… like this below, but it never worked, so I never tried to use it like you describe Tim…

Tim Harrigan wrote:

Go to minks post #33 and at the bottom you will see reply, reply with quote and then a little quote bubble.
Sometimes I like to reply to

Tim Harrigan wrote:

Click on the quote bubble and you will see a check mark appear next to it.
different parts of the same post

Tim Harrigan wrote:

Now go down to your post #31 and check that quote bubble so the check appears.
as when someone posts a list of

Tim Harrigan wrote:

Now go back up to minks post and click on Reply with Quote.
questions……

Tim Harrigan wrote:

Both quotes will appear and you can edit appropriately.
:rolleyes:
Carl

[Carl Russell]

@mink 39424 wrote:

…. i dont know how to post a link……

Highlight the URL, then copy and paste it into the text of your post http://nh.craigslist.org/grd/3559537619.html ….. or click on the web-link icon above, and paste it in the URL box in that window…http://nh.craigslist.org/grd/3559537619.html

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Sounds like you have tested it. That is exactly how my mare acts. She’s about 90% sight impaired now. You may be able to see some cloudiness, or cataracts inside his pupils. They memorize the landscape so it doesn’t appear they are blind until they do things like you’ve described, not entering the barn, or looking for feed buckets…..

You’ve seen how well my mare works, but I could drive into the side of the barn at full bore. It may not be the end of the world.

I actually had to get the vet to verify for me because she was so functional despite the little oddities.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Baystatetom 39407 wrote:

…… bleeding from the hock. The ice and snow and half rotted slash from previous harvesting is beating them up a bit. So far nothing serious, just scrapes …..

I had a mentor who always said….. “It’s a long way from the heart”!!!!

Blood always looks worse in snow anyway, but I’m sure they hardly notice it. The other good thing is that in snow the cut stays clean, and there aren’t any flies biting much these days either…..:rolleyes:

I don’t want to sound like a hard-ass, but I generally don’t get too worried about cuts and scrapes….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@Does’ Leap 39404 wrote:

…..Regarding trotting, do you drive to town in second gear:)? Why not giv trotting a try? …..

Second gear is somewhere on the way to O/D, right????:rolleyes:

Oh, I do trot my horses, on the town road, but I really don’t have much favorable terrain. Usually going into the woods with my sled is a pretty serious warm-up in its own right. The other aspect, is that my horses are usually pretty fresh when they are fresh, and would just love to trot into the woods, so I usually I don’t give them what they want, until they give me what I want.

I have never been able to multi-quote a post, but I usually hit reply with quote, and if there is more than one statement I want to highlight I copy and paste it between the brackets on the

Quote bubble icon in the header

. I also will cut and paste from other posts in the thread if I want to include them. like this

Does’ Leap wrote:

Unrelated question: how do you pull multiple quotes from a single post or from multiple posts for that matter? I can’t seem to figure out what the “+ icon is at the bottom left of the screen or how to use it., I just have to type in the name of the original poster by adding =Does’ Leap after Quote in the first bracket. Sometimes I open another window to the thread to scroll through pages that I can’t access once I am in the reply box, like this

Does’ Leap wrote:

Another factor with the aforementioned load (aside from my underestimating the amount of dirt vs. snow on my road) was a 19″ DBH x 16′ soft maple..

Carl:cool:

Hopewell Farm wrote:

Carl can correct me if I am wrong, but the benefit to runners, specifically metal runners in the snow would be similar to how ice skates work, in that the friction from the runner on the snow melts the snow forming a small amount of liquid which decreases the resistance, creating the advantage. When the forward movement is stopped the liquid refreezes as the heat generated during movement quickly dissipates at rest and essentially freezes the runner to the snow. Depending on the length of the runner this can present a sizable bond that would need to be broken to begin forward movement.

I may be stating the obvious here, I apologize if this has been previously discussed.

John That’s about right John…….It usually takes more than the few minutes that I take to rest my horses, and it happens really infrequently though.

[Carl Russell]

@john plowden 39348 wrote:

I’d be happy to build one for you –

This would be a very good option….:o

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@horsemedic47 39339 wrote:

Didn’t see a video

There is one in the first post from George.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

As I understand it, a person can gain free access to DAP.com by becoming a paying member of DAPNet, which deepens their connection to the network/community and support of the organization to complete its mission.

Folks who keep their annual membership to DAPNet should have no problems continuing to use this site.

I think it is important to make the site affordable to folks who may be occasional users, but I don’t think DAPNet needs to be apologetic for the cost/value that this site provides, and how it fits into the broader operation of an important network.

Folks who want to read, can do it for free, those who want to benefit by engaging in the network, should seriously consider contributing to the operation of the organization.

Current DAPNet annual membership is a whopping $20 for an individual, $30 for a family. There is a common expression by folks from “afar” that they may never personally benefit from DAPNet regional activities, but those activities make this site valid, and you will get the newsletter, and you will be supporting an effort that could eventually grow to where it could support activities in your region, either directly, or indirectly.

Seems like a no brainer to me…… but of course I’m biased…..:rolleyes:

Of course these figures may change as official DAPNet BOD members (Which I am not) refine this strategy, and what I am saying should not dismiss the idea of a nominal expense to just be on this site, but I want to encourage folks to consider full membership in DAPNet also, which will kill two birds with one stone.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@mitchmaine 39307 wrote:

Do we believe that a forest of trees is an ecosystem in and of itself? …..

It isn’t really that, but trees do not grow in the forest, it is the trees that grow the forest. There is no forest ecosystem without trees, and the biology of tree growth. I think that is one of our problems, because every time we cut over a forest, even when we clear it, it comes back….. But the intervening impact on the whole system is a loss of energy and an impact on the integrity of the interplay between organisms.

I truly do believe that it is much more sensitive than we have been led to believe, and to me the impact is greater through the philosophy behind the management, than actually through the treatment, although the treatment is where the rubber hits the road.

Using economic models and growth charts based on a focus on maximizing financial gain from trees separates our actions from the ecosystem that supports them. That is why I speak about low impact forestry, rather than low impact logging. It is the focus of the forestry that determines the greatest impact. I take great exception to horse-loggers practicing conventional “tree-growth” forestry and calling it low impact. The horse doesn’t change the approach to the ecosystem, it is the acknowledgement of how tree growth is tied to the web of other relationships that changes the impact.

I do however think that horses are the key to practicing low impact forestry because of their versatility, low cost, and small scale.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Well this hypothetical has some interesting aspects that ring true to some real-life situations, but I’ll stick to this first.

Taken at face value, I would question the premise first, because I know that BLW has phytotoxicity, preventing other trees from regenerating within it’s close vicinity, but I had not been aware of it having affect on amphibians. Not knowing for certain, I would counter that I know that there are many other such complex relationships that are part of the environmental pressures that are exerted on species that help refine their participation in certain ecosystems. So many that I am quite sure that I only know of a small portion.

Recognizing that BLW is an uncommon, but native, species in our forests, I would not be concerned about this, as the brush would be a natural occurrence, and its effect on other organisms would be a natural expectation, even without any human interaction. The forest ecosystem, and its naturally occurring regional constituents of the forest community, is primarily supported by the biology of tree growth. This is represented by common associations of trees species growing in sites where soil, moisture, aspect, solar exposure, and soil-types are favorable to the desired conditions for each species. These trees occupy the site, creating an environment that is the result of shade cast by live trees, soil disturbance caused by falling trees, and soil characteristics related to biomass contributions from leaves, twigs, branches, and bolewood, to name a few. These aspects are the skeleton that provides desirable conditions for multitude of organisms, from amphibians to fungi, and songbirds to large mammals, that also sort themselves out based on those listed characteristics, and more. Along with these conditions come positive, and “so-called” negative affects of one species upon another.

I feel that as long as my attention to tree growth stays withing natural parameters, such as high stocking, observable natural species composition and stand structure, leaving brush from a potentially toxic tree that is a naturally occurring species would be acceptable to me as part of the normal biomass contribution. I also feel that this type of stimulus on certain amphibians could lead to the development of favorable genetic mutations of salamanders that could allow them to exist in this micro-site environment of BLW.

There are many relationships in our ecosystems that people place value on, either because they are considered beneficial, or because they are considered detrimental, based on certain biases that drive their decision making. I realize that many people may consider that Spotted Salamanders are rare and endangered, and that we should do all we can to protect them, but my opinion is that we should do all we can to protect the complexity of the ability of the ecosystem, represented by the multitude of interrelationships within it, to respond to challenging impacts and environment pressures. The way the ecosystem builds this resiliency is like an animal’s immune system, through complex challenges to different inherent components.

By interfering with the outcome of one relationship, we possibly affect others, and it magnifies down the line, and across the web. I try to maintain as much integrity in the way tree growth is expressed on a certain site, in a certain region, so that my desire for forest products does not disrupt the interplay between the inhabitants of that forest community, and their dependence on the characteristics of tree growth.

There is a fungus called Armelaria Root Rot, or Shoe String Fungus. It is both a parasite and a saprophyte. It is considered a “tree killer”, because it attacks trees at their stump, killing cambium through parasitism. It doesn’t always kill trees that are vigorous, but causes defect in the butt logs of quality hardwoods. It also lives on dead and down trees so that it stays a part of the forest. It plays a vital role in constantly testing the vigor of dominant species, yet it is considered a pest because of its economic impact on timber production. My feeling is that this is one of the most important relationships that we could cultivate in the interest for long-term vigor of our northern hardwood forests, but as you can imagine, this perspective is not shared by most of my professional peers.

I see infestations of diseases, and invasives as detrimental in some respects, but I also see the prevalence of these conditions as indicators of the lowered resiliency of our ecosystems because of our unintended impact by interfering with the relationships between competing components. This is pure conjecture, and probably needs a study to verify it, but it is an informed perspective that helps me make choices about how to affect the sites where I work. Speaking of which, these are things that I was taught in school, by professors, using published texts, but I cannot point to any studies to substantiate the concept of ecological resiliency through complex interplay of organisms.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

@near horse 39292 wrote:

Wow – that is pretty neat. I read a part regarding trail/road maintenance and never heard of “rutters” tht go out and recut ruts for sled runners after a snowfall and “sprinklers” that water over the ruts and trail to ice it up for ease of load movement. Great pics too!

Thanks for sharing Andrew.

Rutters, Sampsons, and turkeys…..
There’s 30+ pages of terms like these….

Carl

[Author]

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