Carl Russell

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  • in reply to: Draft Horse Whisperer; Yankee Magazine. #77776
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    image_14257.jpg

    Credit: Jarrod McCabe

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    Credit: Jarrod McCabe

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    Credit: Jarrod McCabe
    image_14261.jpgCredit: Jarrod McCabe

    By the time Hutton landed at the University of New Hampshire in the mid-1970s, he was working in the woods with his own animals–a pair of oxen, Butch and Buck, whom he used to collect cordwood for customers. Later, he started teaming horses, and it wasn’t unusual to find him logging with a pair of Belgians in the depths of winter in some northern forest. In 2005, after years of haying and hauling cows to market for other farmers, Hutton moved out of Stratham to own and operate his own farm, in nearby Lee.
    Coppal House Farm is a property Hutton and his wife, Carol, a middle-school science teacher, have poured the last several years of their lives into fixing up. They restored old fields–barns, too–and moved into a new farmhouse in 2011. With the loss of his father’s farm hanging over him, Hutton has maintained an almost obsessive drive to stay diversified. He grows a range of vegetables for his farm stand and local farmers’ markets, and just this past year has started growing canola to press into oil. He’s also opened his property to the public. Each fall families pour into his place to weave through a giant corn maze, or hop on a wagon pulled by his three horses. In winter he hitches his horses up to a big sleigh for a four-mile ride through woods and snow.
    Those horses, in fact, form the center of Hutton’s farm. It’s easy to dismiss his use of them as something for show, a marketing gimmick that makes for a pretty picture. But Hutton is nothing if not practical. He hates inefficiency, and the truth is, for a farm this size and the kind of work Hutton does, the horses offer an advantage.
    “We’re a mixed-power farm,” Hutton says. “We have no illusions about the horses or the tractor. If the horses make more sense, I throw a harness. If a tractor makes more sense, I turn a key. I have no problem with that. None. Nada. But being able to combine the best of both, you use this where it’s most efficient. And it works.”
    Each spring, Hutton gets an early start on his plowing because he doesn’t have to wait for the ground to completely dry before it can support heavy machinery. And in the woods, the horses let Hutton work without scarring up the land. “When I’m done, you wouldn’t even know I was there,” he says. “The environmental impact is zip. All we need is a space that’s as wide as a kitchen table. With a skidder, you’re spending more than $100,000, and you need an eight-foot-wide road.”
    But the animals also add a dynamic to the work that Hutton can’t get from machinery. The old soul in Hutton treasures the relationships he’s formed with his horses. When he was 24, he bought his first one, a big retired pulling horse named Duke. The pair spent a lot of hours in the woods, and it was Duke who eventually broke Ted into the work.
    Over the last quarter-century, Hutton and Ted have navigated myriad landscapes and weather conditions. The two have been out late plowing fields on a Friday night, then in downtown Portsmouth the next day, pulling a carriage for a wedding at the height of tourist season. They’ve worked when it’s 20* below, so cold that hoary froths of ice built up around the mouths and ears of his horses, and the only thing they could do to stay warm was to keep moving. “Once you get going, you’re down to a T-shirt in a half-hour,” says Hutton, a farmer who likes working in winter. “Besides, you don’t get stung by yellow jackets when it’s that cold.”
    When Hutton talks about his horses, he speaks of them as he would any co-workers. He knows their limits, what sets off a certain mood, and how each one works under pressure. There’s also a reverence in his voice, an acknowledgment that they’ve taught him something as well.
    “Ted’s got a humorous steak in him,” Hutton says. “You take him out in the woods, and after one or two logs he’ll want to see whether the line in the sand is the same as it was yesterday. He’s testing you to see whether the same rules from 20 years ago still apply. I have to swear at him when we’re working, because he just wants to push my buttons.”
    Spending nearly four decades working with draft animals offers that kind of insight. But in developing that experience, Hutton has also emerged as an important link to the farming life that once built and defined New England communities. He’s an able storyteller and a willing educator, traits not often found in men like him, and he carries the legacy and the heritage of those farmers to make sure their history is accurately told. “I’ve said we either tell our own stories,” he says, “or somebody else is going to tell them for us, and we may not like how they’re told.”
    At agricultural fairs all across Maine and New Hampshire, Hutton has worked as an announcer for pulling competitions, weaving colorful accounts and historical anecdotes into his play-by-play. In 1998 he caught the attention of Lynn Martin Graton, traditional-arts coordinator for the New Hampshire State Council on the Arts. She was in the midst of planning for New Hampshire’s presence at the following year’s Smithsonian Folklife Festival, a 10-day event held each summer on the National Mall. She just happened to stumble across Hutton at the Deerfield Fair and was immediately struck by him.
    “John was announcing and filling in with all this interesting history about the horses and how draft animals were used before the automobile,” recalls Graton, now the NHSCA’s acting director. “I thought, ‘Wow, this guy is great.’ And all the guys loved him. He’s extremely well informed and has an interest in history and is an independent scholar of this lifestyle and this history of farming. And he lives the life and does the work. He knows how to communicate emotionally and verbally with these animals.” So in 1999, Hutton joined some 140 other New Hampshire residents in representing the state in Washington; he served as the announcer and commentator for the festival’s draft-animal demonstrations.
    About an hour into the logging work, a sweating Hutton sheds his work jacket. “Back when I was logging full-time I don’t think I weighed more than 170,” he cracks, patting his stomach.
    On a good day, Hutton and his horses would have a fair number of the logs pulled out of the woods by the end of the afternoon. But that’s not going to happen today. The seasoned teamster in him knows that he can push his animals only so far. A century ago, loggers avoided working for men who regularly came out of the woods with fewer horses than they started with. If a teamster was hard on his horses, they reasoned, he undoubtedly was going to be even harder on his men, because they came even cheaper. “It takes a real teamster to have the same set of horses every year,” Hutton notes.
    And that’s why he’s continously reading his animals, evaluating their temperament and performance. At certain points, even when the logs are tonged and the horses are ready to pull, Hutton waits, letting the animals learn how to stand still in case a situation comes up and he needs to fix or adjust some piece of equipment. He’s got a living to make, but he’s not going to overwork his animals to do it.
    Unable to get Twiggy to work in sync with Ice, he finally breaks her off on her own. Still, it’s a struggle. He tongs a medium-sized log, but she continues hopping around, barely moving it forward. He moves to a smaller log, with the same results. “We’re going to get down to toothpicks in a few minutes,” he hollers.
    Just then, Twiggy lurches forward, bringing the felled tree with her. “There you go, sweetie,” Hutton says, following beside her. “I ain’t asking you to do anything you can’t do.”
    Twiggy’s last log is one of her biggest. It’s still a bit of a fight to get her to move it, but she finally brings the pine to the clearing, from where Hutton will eventually move the wood back to the farm with his tractor. Hutton looks satisfied. “I just got to her so she has the confidence,” he says softly to himself.
    Some three hours after they left, Hutton and his team head back to the barn. By the time they reach home, the horses are sweating and sheets of steam pour off their bodies. Overhead, the sky has taken on a steel-gray hue. Hutton looks up. The forecast is calling for a storm to roll through the region the next day. That means snow, and the chance for Hutton to get his horses back into the woods, where he and his team belong.
    Coppal House Farm, 118 North River Road, Lee, NH. 603-659-3572; nhcornmaze.com

    in reply to: Horses standing #50372
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    @Carl Russell 40505 wrote:

    …….

    It is not like you describe, “that was hard, and this is easier”, it is more like “when I did what s/he asked I get to rest”. Using tiring exercises actually does not reinforce the desired actions, especially since there probably is very little consistency in the tiring exercises for them to learn from. This serves more as a distraction or confusion.
    ……………

    I really have a problem with trying to “make’ a horse stand still. ……

    These two things were not that well explained.

    When we let a tired horse decide that it is easier to stand, we are letting THEM decide to stand. If we use standing as a reward for effective execution of a desired action, then it is us allowing them to stand.

    Also it is not as I wrote it, it is more accurately “When i do “X”, s/he allows me the comfort of release to stand”. So while tiring activities may cause a horse to want to stand, the purpose for pressure-based activity is to recognize the desired action, and to immediately reward with release.

    In nature, the herd boss puts pressure on the subordinate until they demonstrate behavior that shows they are willing to follow the leader, then the leader will take the pressure away. If we engage in pressure to get them to move, then it should always be to get a desired result DURING the action. When using the pressure to tire the horse with emphasis on the “action”, like standing, after the pressure, we are working contrary to the mind of the horse.

    There is a concept that teaching a horse to stand is like teaching a dog to sit. These two are quite opposite. The dog is a predator, they desire food, and they want to move in order to scare up prey. The horse is prey, and their comfort is to stand and not have to run. The only time a dog sits still is when it is waiting for its superior to finish eating and to allow it access to the food, or when it is well-fed. So asking a dog to sit, or stay, with corrections, can be rewarded by releasing them, and allowing them freedom or food.

    Using corrective body language on a horse to stop them from moving is exactly the same body language that they are hard-wired to move away from.

    Carl

    in reply to: Horses standing #50371
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    @sickle hocks 40498 wrote:

    …….

    I have definitely been thinking of ‘whoa’ as a command to stop. I like riding western (stuff like reining or working cowhorse, not saying i’m any good at it) and so l like a hard, active stop on a horse. Obviously I’m not going to be asking for sliding stops in harness with the bale sled, but I just don’t like trickling down to a stop…I really believe that ‘whoa’ means stop, and stop Right Now…I like it off the voice with the rein to back it up if needed.

    ……..

    I don’t really think a lot in terms of reward, and probably shouldn’t have used that word…more pressure and release. He might take just the voice, or maybe a bit of rein pressure, but as soon as the stop happens he gets the release. I like the old, ‘make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult’. So standing until there’s a signal from me is pretty easy, and they like that. Almost like a reward i guess. Walking without a signal is the wrong thing so we turn it into a bunch of work walking in the snow or backing up, and that’s difficult. Then we whoa and try again, and maybe he makes the right choice next time.

    I’m interested in what you are saying about leadership and the horses being ahead of me, and needing to get ahead of them. I think that you are saying is…watch the horse, when it looks like he is going to break the whoa because he can’t stand it anymore, then get ahead of him and ask for the walk first so that it’s your idea…Does that sound about right?

    …..

    I know you are on the right track……

    You bring up an interesting point. I have run into many horse riders who think about things a bit differently than I do. One of the things to bear in mind is that you never break contact with a riding horse. While the animal is responding to rein and word, they also have your constant contact to reassure them.

    Donn’s discussion about working around a loose horse is very appropriate. Working with draft horses is much more like round pen work, than like riding. In the round pen, the horse learns to stand comfortably as a reward. When they do what they are asked to do they get a reward…. to stand. Without any contact or attention to hold them there, they learn to relish this.

    It is not like you describe, “that was hard, and this is easier”, it is more like “when I did what s/he asked I get to rest”. Using tiring exercises actually does not reinforce the desired actions, especially since there probably is very little consistency in the tiring exercises for them to learn from. This serves more as a distraction or confusion.

    I agree that in the context of working “whoa” is uttered like a command. When I say whoa, I also expect immediate stop. I say whoa, drop the lines, and can be stepping off the cart, all in the same motion. Because I use it as a reward to every action I ask of them, they learn that whoa is something they want to do, and they learn clearly that it is a break in pressure. This clarity allows them the confidence they need to know they are doing exactly what I expect. The way I reinforce this is to stop them often, even during work, and allow them a clear a definite opportunity to stand, if only for a few seconds, before giving a new command to move.

    If I have a horse that appears to be unable to stand, or that is anticipating my next move, it shows me that I have not been clear enough in my exercises to define the difference between working and standing. I have found that a horse that senses that I am concentrating on them is apt to act as though they are under my intentional pressure, so when they stand I ignore them.

    What I mean about getting ahead of them is similar to what Donn wrote. I do not mean rush, but I do not turn my attention to my horses until I am ready to take charge. I only pick up my lines when I am ready to drive. I only speak to them when I have something I want from them….. sometimes I might say “easy”, as a way to get a hesitation out of them, but generally when I am ready, they know they need to be too.

    I expect my horses to stand until I am ready to work. They are completely released from pressure. That is when I expect them to stand. I have fallen off a sulky plow, and dropped the lines, and had them stop dead in their tracks. To reinforce this I NEVER even think about touching my lines until I am ready to drive. I have had trouble with others, particularly novices, who want to take a few seconds to gather their thoughts before asking my horses to move…. that won’t happen with my team. They have learned that pressure is my time, and release is their time. As soon as there is contact on the lines they are on.

    By gathering my thoughts first, I am getting ahead of the horses. They are not bolters, and only when really fresh are they likely to step out that quickly, but if the driver is not ready to use the contact s/he will run into communication problems quickly with any of my horses. This is the type of clarity I am trying to describe in the action of stopping and starting. The blurry ends, like stopping and standing as a command (pressure) leading softly to the release of standing, and the contact (or even purposeful attention) without definite desired action will not create the clarity that will help your animal execute the desired outcome.

    I really have a problem with trying to “make’ a horse stand still. It just sends all the wrong messages in my mind. I see pressure as meaning action, and release as meaning no action. If I am putting pressure on a horse to stand still, I feel like I am shooting myself in the foot. If most of the time my pressure means to move, and they are instinctively driven to find release where they can stand comfortably without pressure, then my rationale is to use standing as a natural release from pressure. If their natural comfort zone is standing, then if I put pressure on them to remain standing, they sense the normal intention of my pressure as to do something, but then my intention seems to mean that I don’t want them to move……This is confusing to me let alone to the mind of the horse.

    Pressure and release is great, because there is absolute dichotomy. When we rationalize soft boarders we lose the effectiveness of this basic equine language. Humans are great at seeing shades of grey, not so much horses. Working with horses is a lot like computer programming, a whole lot of 1’s and 0’s. Not that they can be programmed, but that it is either pressure or release, 1 or 0. I never try to condition any response form my horses, just reinforce the communication system. Pressure, follow my lead, release, stand. When I am on, I expect my horses to do no thinking about what is going on around them, just concentrate on what I am communicating to them. This way they learn to focus on me all of the time, looking to me as the leader, even when I have given them the freedom of a pasture.

    Carl

    in reply to: Horses standing #50370
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    ( i am a bit afraid that i’m going to create a team that only i can use without a bunch of retraining, especially as i’m careful about my body language and not everyone is or cares, which could cause a lot of confusion)

    First of all, very few people can drive my horses easily the first time. I know very few teamsters who would admit otherwise about their own. As far as I’m concerned training your horses to the lowest common denominator is not productive. Consistent teamster skills are not as commonplace as we would like to believe. Horses are pretty intelligent, and habitual creatures, so they can learn to accommodate inconsistencies, but I have never been that interested in the old plug-type horse, so don’t waste too much time fretting over this, just keep working on building the best team you ever had.

    @sickle hocks 40484 wrote:

    ….. I also think of whoa as a command to follow instantly, but the chance to stand afterward as a reward. If someone gets restless we’ve been going off trail for a circle or two in the deep snow…standing is a lot less work and seems to be preferred.

    The other issue I’m having is them anticipating ‘walk’. If I was just training, I’d make things really random and tough to anticipate but as I’m working there is a certain amount of routine and they sure pick up on it fast.

    After standing I move into place, pick up the reins and get a bit of contact and then ask for ‘walk’ with my voice and by turning my body ‘on’ (working without blinders so they are able to see me). I realized I had been turning my body on before using my voice and they were walking off that…it didn’t seem fair to correct that as I like using a sequence of increasing intensity cues for whatever I ask, so now I’m trying to turn on body and voice at the same time as I’d really like them to wait for the voice.)

    Anyway they are starting to want to go when I first take line contact. We are practicing standing around a bit like that, or going off in a circle and coming back if they need to. Anything else I should be doing?

    Please bear with me, I am just trying to be of assistance, and since you have posted here looking for feed-back I will throw out my observations.

    Much of what you wrote above shows me clear inconsistencies. First you say that whoa is a command that is followed by a chance to stand, then you say after walking through deep snow standing is preferable….. which is it? Does whoa mean stop, or does it mean stand? To me it is just simple to use whoa to mean stand. They have to stop in order to stand. Horses that show a need for clarity will do better with simple one-concept commands. If stand is a reward for stopping, then what is the reward for execution of other commands? The subtle difference between stopping then standing is not easily absorbed by a horse. The chance to stand instead of moving is really clear, and it is the reason why they stop naturally, so it doesn’t have to be explained to them.

    They are also showing you that they are more ready than you are. Horses have a lot of energy, and it is their way. When they are ready before you are, and you aren’t ready to lead them…. they will not see you as their leader. As inconvenient as it may be, you need to get ahead of them. You will not be able to show them how to slow down to your preferred method until you show them that you are ahead of them at every turn. If they keep finding ways to get ahead of you, then your leadership will be in question.

    One other thing is that I am never not training. Every single momentary interaction I have with my horses is an opportunity to reinforce my initiatives. I especially think that training while working is very productive. I rarely take them off course, just use every opportunity during work. Truthfully there should not be two approaches, one when training, the other when working. There is no doubt some exercises are easier to accomplish outside of the workplace, but whatever works there should be repeated in the working situation.

    You are clearly thinking hard, and trying hard, and seeing well, all of which is exceptional. Just try to remember that when you see a horse not meeting your expectations, the solution may not be as simple as a trick, or equipment change, it may be even simpler. I mean try to simplify your communication. Remember it is not disrespectful to think of them as needing simple messages…. in fact it is even more respectful, because it is part of accepting them as horses.

    Keep up the good work, Carl

    in reply to: Horses standing #50368
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    @Mark Cowdrey 40450 wrote:

    Donn,
    “pieces between the ears”?
    I am unclear as to which pieces you mean.
    Thanks,
    Mark

    I like that….. it always comes down to the piece between the ears….:p

    Carl

    in reply to: Horses standing #50369
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    It’s interesting…. I prefer the split faced bridle for exactly the same reason. I just think the nose band gets in the way….

    Also I roach my manes so I never have to deal with mane at all…

    As far as checks, I use a small leather loop, like a short set of riding reins. Most of the time they just ride loose on top of the neck, but if I have a grabber, I check him up by looping on the hame, or to a clip on the top hame strap.

    I do see eating and reaching for food as a potential for creeping, but generally if my horse cannot reach because of the check, then they will stand like they are expected to. This points to the difference that I see in the exercise of standing. A horse’s tendency to move when in whoa, is more related to their lack of clarity in the expectation, than it has to do with them distracted with reasons to move.

    Whoa(stand) is not a command in my vocabulary, it is a reward for execution of commands. Pressure on the bit indicates the need to be attentive to my initiative, release is the reward for following that initiative. Standing is a reward for them, and they learn to love it. If a horse will not stand comfortably, I believe that they have not gotten a clear idea of the difference between the pressure and the release.

    I watch the animal and time them mentally. If they get bored and start creeping at 3 minutes, then the next time I stop them, I wait 2 minutes, get their attention, then move them. This exercise does not get the feeding done, nor the logs hitched, but I have found that the time spent on getting the horse to know how to stand is time well spent. When they learn that they move at your discretion, then they learn to relish the reward, the chance top stand still. When I see them taking more advantage of the time, and resting comfortably, I wait longer, stretching the time, until I can see the distinct recognition that they are waiting for my next command.

    I have pointed this out before, but I believe that using Stand as a command is an action of putting pressure on a horse to do what you want to give them as a reward. This leads to confusion, never quite sure when they get the release. And remember, all the great horsemen acknowledge that the horse learns on the release, not on the repetition.

    Some people think I take it to an extreme, but I reward my horses with whoa after every execution. I stop them when pulling hard to reward them for the effort. I stop them after a haw, before I ask them to back. I ask them to step back 5 steps, and reward them with a whoa, before continuing to back into the barn. I stop between haw and gee, unless in the course of traveling. When whoa is used as a reward, and thrown into regular use, then standing is never something that needs to be taught.

    The knowledge that you will provide the release, and the time to stand, is a big part of the trust that will increase the focus on your leadership, that will lead to more effective work. The horse’s trust in your leadership, will boost their confidence in the working situation, and they will be content to stand and wait until you want to engage them again.

    At least according to my rationale, and practice.

    Carl

    in reply to: forwarding wagon?? #77744
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    John, any time we get into machinery, we open ourselves up to expenses that outstrip the horses. That said, the forwarder could be used on nearly all of the jobs I have done….. at least half, maybe 75%. As you point out the time it isn’t being used is going to be a cost that will have to be carried when it is being used.

    This is one of our cultural problems, us using horses. We don’t have the skilled labor close enough for us to increase our capacity enough, so that we can integrate technology that can increase our capacity. That is why some of us have tried to make the cooperative approach work, which it does to some extent.

    There is a risk is being a one-person operation with lots of expensive equipment… and that is that the horses stay in the pasture, and you run the equipment. I am looking seriously at improved forwarding capacity for the horses, something on wheels without the loader. If the tractor you already own can be used to load the wagon, then it can also be used to haul the wagon with a short tongue, or if conditions and time are right, with a long tongue, the horses can haul the load….. just my $.02….

    I have also seen a drive-wheel power-assist on a Payeur forwarder (on the website) which may address some of those rough terrain issues.

    There is no doubt that the mixed power systems are going to be a part of our expansion in this field, we just don’t want to see good people drowning in debt…..:mad:

    Carl

    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    I am not actually trying to figure out how to lift logs, I can do that many ways. I am trying to find ways to make my crawler more versatile. Having the winch functional, may improve it some, but what I want to do is mount a knuckle-boom loader on it to take advantage of the hydraulic capacity to not only lift logs, but to accomplish many other tasks as well. It is a project to amortize the cost of operations and maintenance over more applications.

    Just thoughts at this point.

    Carl

    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    @Countymouse 40390 wrote:

    Thinking outside the box a bit here.
    What about parbuckling the logs onto a trailer/wagon with a winch? It could be an electric winch powered from either a generator or off the tow vehichle. Not as fast as a hydraulic loader, I am sure, but it is light and cheap and also capable of heavy work. Is this too slow of a process to be worthy of serious consideration?

    Here’s a video (although I am pretty sure most know what I am talking about anyway)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0T9dz-lvMY

    There’s no doubt that can be very effective.

    What I am faced with is an good old piece of internal combustion equipment that sits around a lot. If it were outfitted with a hydraulic knuckleboom loader it would have many valuable uses on the farm and in the logging business. If it doesn’t work out, then I will keep parbuckling, or I’ll build a side-jammer.
    321071_10200247339012567_1252541648_n.jpg

    Carl

    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    @Scott G 40389 wrote:

    Carl, here are some pics of a small-scale pulp operation with the configuration you’re possibly looking for.

    http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?12720-Pulpwood-Logging-Equipment-Old-School-Style

    Expecting to get another 20″ on the ground tonight/tomorrow. Loving it!

    DUDE!!!;)

    That’s it….. although I don’t expect to be hauling, but it could apply. I bet that Gafner would snap right on….. I’ll have to see what’s out there.

    40ยบ’s here this weekend.

    Carl

    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    @Carl Russell 40375 wrote:

    …. They are very expensive, plus the import fee, but the workmanship and design is exceptional. ….

    Or should I say, they are not “CHEAP CRAP”…. quotes from the builder Morgan Anderson. I don’t know what the import fees would be like, but in comparison to loader mounted models on this continent, they are not priced out of reason.

    Carl

    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    I am trying not to go down the building one myself road. I would love to get these rigs imported. They are very expensive, plus the import fee, but they workmanship and design is exceptional. http://www.osterbysmedja.se/english/waggons/models.htm

    I agree Mike, I am not sure about the capacity, but they seem like they could easily haul 600-700 bf with a team. I just wish I could play with one. Simon has suggested I visit to lay my hands on one, but I may be too impatient.

    Carl

    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    @irish 40369 wrote:

    Carl Simon has a horse drawn forwarder, ….

    Thanks, I am in conversation with him regularly about that. As I said, I think it is a waste of animal power to carry that extra steel (the loader) around when their power can be applied to paying cargo instead. I really like the S5V that he uses without the loader, and think that it, or something like it, would work great with a separate mobile loader unit, especially in the team-size.

    Anyway, you can see where my mind is going….:rolleyes:(watch out it’s loose again)

    Carl

    in reply to: Buying the farm #75682
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Nice :o…..

    Carl

    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Thanks guys. This has given me good feed-back. The JD 1010 already has a Gearmatic winch and attachments on it. The winch is junk, and while it could be repaired, will probably never add to my operation the way a loader could. As far as I know, at least from the owner’s manual, the same attachments are designed for the appropriate sized back-hoe unit. Based on that, I also assume that some modification can be made to attach one of these smaller knuckle-booms in a similar way, obviously stabilizers would need to remain included. Right now the only hydraulics on there are for the blade, which might not provide adequate flow for the loader, so I would need to also consider a PTO attachment for a pump on the loader units itself.

    Anyway, I have moved a lot of logs by hand, and never had a crawler, or any other piece of equipment on the job for 25 years, but now that I do, I feel like I need to make the rig as versatile as the animals are. I am liking the forwarder wagon more and more, but I am not convinced that I want my horses to be hauling extra steel back and forth in the woods. If I use the motor to load logs in the woods, then unload by hand, or vice versa, then I think my investments will pay better dividends.

    And as has been mentioned, stacking on small landings, sorting product, and general loader hydraulic work, will be a great advantage.

    On the brain-radar, now we’ll see where it goes.

    Any further feed-back and experiential guidance is welcome.

    Carl

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