[Carl Russell]

Just to be clear, the Barden design is not a farm cart. It was designed specifically for logging, integrating efficiencies that are valid to commercial applications.

If logging with horses was just about pulling logs, then hitch height might be the only consideration. Teamster safety, comfort, and stamina, all play huge roles, as do bio-dynamics of the draft animal, maneuverability, teamster skills, and operational techniques and methodology.

I have two log carts, one of the high hitch/high seat models (since 1986), and a Barden cart (since 1993). Between the two I have moved over a million board feet. I still use the high cart for many tasks in the field and woods. While I do not take on a lot of commercial work, it has nothing to do with financial inefficiencies, or functional restrictions.

I started working for myself 27 years ago to work for me. I have always worked off the farm to afford the work I need to do for myself, including building my home and barns, sawing lumber, building roads and other farm infrastructure, raising and processing food, as well as other external costs of home schooling, community organizing and advocacy, etc. I work 65% of my time for myself, earning nothing but the value of the investment, and 35% making money.

Everything I have ever done, whether working for myself, or for others, has been done with a sharp pencil. I know my expenses, and I know how they stack up against the income they generate. One of the basic principles I work under is keeping expenses low, and bringing efficiencies to my work through improved skills and quality workmanship.

With that in mind, the Barden cart is by far one of the most effective tools for anybody wanting to seriously work horses in the woods. In 20 years I have had clearance issues that I can hold in one hand. I have worked over hundreds of acres throughout Vermont on every type of terrain. I can back that cart up steep grades, turn in tight places, and yes I can, and do hook large logs and whole trees.

I have worked with many teamsters who use the higher carts, and it is clear that they are not as easy to maneuver. The high hitch may give the log some lift, but it reduces the horses’ ability to lift, and turns their power into a push. This may seem insignificant to some, but after as many years as I have been doing this, having the horse be just as committed at the end of the day as they were at the beginning is huge. The high hitch makes traveling easier, but makes starting more difficult, and on uphill skids this is very evident.

Walking all day, or having to climb up and down for every hitch has a real and lasting impact on the teamster, including the emotional and physical commitment to chainsaw work (which by the way is the most important work that a logger does). The difficulty in maneuverability leads to short cuts in felling that are production-based not silviculture-based, and there is a tendency to put less effort into the saw work, saving energy for the work of skidding.

All-in-all, everybody gets comfortable with what they have, but I generally work all by myself, so I don’t have anyone on the ground hitching for me, nor do I construct my enterprises so that having another person around is necessary at all.

If I didn’t already have a line on another used Barden cart, I would be on my way to get that one from Paul. I have to say that I admire your workmanship, and the fact that you want to/and can build your own, but it is my opinion that you should not hesitate any longer, and just go get that cart.

Say hi to Paul for me, Carl

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[Carl Russell]

Michelle, during the winter 1989-90 I built a hovel for the horses in the woods where I was working and stayed in a wall tent, carried water, hay, and grain and food for me…. lived and breathed horses,logs, and fire for about a month…… I can’t say it should be a requirement, but it sure puts things into perspective…..and no one will ever be able to take that away from you…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jim, up til now I had not planned on taking a trailer, but I could as I expect there are some pieces of equipment or other supplies from this area that I could haul.

I plan on heading up Friday mid-day, and leaving to return on Sunday midday.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I should have typed 1999…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Great idea Brad. The standards for NE Draftwood will certainly be a good place for a list like that.

I personally firmly believe that road work prior to the job is by far the best policy. Put in structures that can withstand the activity, then during the job it is just a maintenance issue.

As far as road and water quality, the VT Dep of Forests, Parks, and Recreation has published a handy little booklet covering Acceptable Management Practices on Logging Jobs in VT. They are easy to get ahold of, and they are very detailed with slope degrees, and structure requirements, etc.
Here is a link to a PDF… http://www.vtfpr.org/watershed/documents/Amp2006.pdf

As far as maintaining ecological integrity, while erosion control is part of it, it ultimately has much more to do with silviculture, felling and stem removal, and habitat disturbance. All really good things to address in relation to draft animal powered forestry.

Hopefully we can expand this during our presentations at DAPFD.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Donn, this is another great thread, as was Bekah’s article.

I have felt for years that one of the biggest detriments of the modern age is the misconception that mechanical perfection is the standard we are working toward, and that somewhere there is “The perfect team” that will require that we merely pick up the lines and direct them.

In a way I am slightly redirecting, but the way you describe changing line set-ups is a very valuable lesson for teamsters to understand. Even with a team you work every day there can be adjustments.

A few years ago Erika and I digitized a document authored by Les Barden about lines…. I’ll find it and post it….. In which he mentions that adjustment is a continuing component of driving.

Brad also points out an interesting component of matching… The dynamic between horses. Sometimes the horses can react to each other in ways that complicate the teamsters otherwise excellent guidance. On my other recent thread I mention that I have been working a team for about 6 years together, with great results by the way, but the dynamic between them caused similar behavior to what Brad described.

My mare is so responsive, powerful, and confident that she intimidated my gelding. I started using lever bits too, to provide variable line pressure. This worked great, but it never completely addressed the interaction between the two. That I had to work on through cadence, and improving my individual leadership of each horse.

Recently I brought another horse into the mix. Because she is bay, I wanted to have matched team (?) so I hooked with the gelding for tedding and rake hay. It was really interesting to see how these two horses began to accommodate each other very well. It gave me some good insight into the gelding’s previous behavior with the blind mare, and spurred me to try working the blind mare single.

As a single she had always been very responsive, but as she began to lose sight I started using the gelding for single work. While I never leave much decision making up to the horses, I had sort of bought into the comments made by so many other folks about how she must take cues from the other horse when working, so I had just kept working her in the team only.

Well, the facts turn out to be different. She is a nearly flawless horse, even blind, when working single. Which really has helped me to see more clearly the challenges that she had with the other horse.

So all of that brings me back to matching a team has something to do with mechanical adjustments, but it also has a lot to do with how a teamster addresses the team. By working two singles together I was able to overcome a serious communication barrier that existed between the sighted gelding and blind mare.

In your operation where you are mixing and matching all of the time, you must have a good appreciation for that, but many folks buy two animals and work with them for a long time. My point is that while two horses may click well enough to seem to work as one, we should not fall into that expectation. Rather we should work to keep communication open to each individual.

By he way, years ago I saw a picture circa 1920 showing a fellow spreading manure with a Morgan horse and a Jersy bull hooked into the traces……

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’ll reply soon, but wanted to support your interst in MOFGA LIF. That will be a great experience and networking opportunty. This fall is packed for me, so I am not yet certain whether or not I will be there, but we can touch base in VT.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

K where will you be in Vermont? Feel free to contact me at earthwise@hughes.net, or 802-234-5524. I’m in Central VT and have several woodlots nearby that I need to be worked, and cannot cover by myself alone…. I’d love to know more about you and your horses.

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Denise, mowing and leaving it should not choke out new growth, and it does feed the soil. It is a very real component of our rotational pasture/hay land processes.

Especially if you are not getting other nutrients on the land such as manure, this weedy mowed growth could be more valuable left in place to feed the soil.

I know that doesn’t answer the question about which equipment to use, but I have found that effective use of draft animals, or other low investment motive power, is to be creative about how you use the power, and using natural systems to work for you, like plant/soil relationships, is key.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Sorry… i must have missed that…

[Carl Russell]

I had been dealing with challenging dynamic between the mare and her team mate for many years. I went to using Liverpool bits so that I could have different adjustments for each horse to deal with their differences.

Recently I got another mare that is sighted, and is bay, matching my gelding, so I started working the bays together during my last round of haying. I was very pleased with how the two began to accommodate each other very quickly, and it changed my opinion about that gelding…

Once that change of mind had settled in, I began to think about the blonde mare, thinking how responsive she had been as a younger horse, and thinking that perhaps the change in dynamic was a result of her becoming highly sensitive to my direction, because of lack of sight, to the point where she was just way more keyed in than the gelding. This resulted in him lagging, and being frustrated with her, and her having no reaction to him, not working with him in general.

I decided to test this theory by hitching the blind mare as a single, and found that in fact she is extremely soft-mouthed, and as you can see quite confident. I drive her with very little left for her to decide, and she follows my lead flawlessly. It is a pure joy to work this horse single. Pulls like hell. Stops dead. Stands like a statue.

In a team she is too individual. Not being able to see prevents her from adequate communication with the other horse. She is so tuned into my signals, and so confident that the other horse is always playing catch-up…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I agree about riding with the harness on, but that is pretty much the only time I ever ride. It can get a bit uncomfortable, especially if you (Ed) are going to ride a few miles up a mountain skid road… so maybe a combo of a pad for your butt on top of the harness might work….. you can get pretty good foot-holds out of front traces for riding too… certainly not stirrups but adequate to keep you from falling off. I have ridden for a half an hour on a harness jack saddle without too much discomfort, but it has no hardware on top, and I was just at a leisurely walk.

For practice riding you will probably want to use the steps, but with a harness on you can usually find a toe-hold on a front trace or hold back. I grab the hames, put a foot in the loop where my hold-back hangs from the hame ring, up hoist myself up. I hang the whiffle-tree from the hames too.

I like the idea, and have been asked several times to be on call for moose hunters, but yet to actually go after one. I had also thought some about a simple stoneboat head, or a go-devil set-up that could be used to get under the rack to make dragging easier. A small tree-climbers chainsaw would also come in handy…… I was never sure that a moose would come down right on a good skid road…..

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have never been a horse rider…. I am much more comfortable on my feet…. So have never taken the time to refine the use of mine as mounts, but when I have decided to climb on, they have always been accommodating with little or no previous training.

Similar to your thought Ed, I have ridden my skid horse up a steep slope after about the tenth trip up on foot, then hitched him and driven back down with a log. I see no reason why that wouldn’t work while moose hunting. You may want to carry the whiffle-tree while riding though….

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is a pic of the ash 3×3 – 2×2 shafts I made for my barden cart.

Not as easy to maneuver as ground driving, but takes less room than with the team, and I am safe with all tools within easy reach…

Carl

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[Carl Russell]

Soft maple is OK for some poles….4×6 at the base for example, but ash is much better for smaller dimension poles such as 2x or 3x stock.

I have found many farm-cut poles will have some sweep or twist to them, so I usually saw them full dimension on the mill. For example my pole on my bob-sled is 2×8 at the base, then tapers to 2 1/2 or so, so I cut a full 2×8, cut it to length, the snap chalk lines to center the tip, and cut it out with my skill saw.

Similarly I just fashioned shafts for my Barden cart, cutting 3x3s then snapping lines fro double taper down to 2x2s. This way the sweeps can be minimized.

I usually come out about a few feet from the base before I start my taper, giving reinforced strength to the base.

Because I have a mill, I make poles different for every piece of equipment I use. I customize them based on the demand placed on each. I have used soft maple poles many times as they tend to grow straight, and as a small sapling 4″ dia ish they can be strong, but rarely last more than a few years.

Carl

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