[Carl Russell]

Hey Stephen great job.

My perspective on Forecarts has more to do with the implement than with the work of market gardening. I do use my fore cart with my disk, spring-tooth, and drag harrows, more for comfort and safety than for functionality. The tires do tend to compact soil when harrowing, but then again so do the hooves. I do find some functional advantage to hitching into one piece of equipment then merely using draw pins when I need to disconnect, or connect, to a different implement. Also considering the small scale of our gardening operation, it allows me to prepare for other work, like logging, or spreading manure, and diversifying the daily enterprises without complicated hitching exercises.

For me the safety and comfort of using a fore cart plays the biggest role. I also happen to use a cart made by Les Barden of Farmington, NH, which has a “chariot” design, so that stepping on and off is extremely easy and safe. The Barden cart tends to shine for its log hitching design, but there is also a receiver hitch on the back for a draw-bar attachment. I can pull a wide array of implements from that draw-bar.

Being able to step on an off easily, to stand comfortably for balance during motion, and to have tool carrying capacity brings significant advantage to the undertaking. I feel strongly that a comfortable and safe teamster with increased functionality is on the best road toward the high level of leadership required to make draft animal power most effective.

Carl

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[Carl Russell]

The voice thing is an interesting aside. I was a bit frustrated by the incessant creeping, so I suspect I shouted as much from that as from believing it was going to stop them. When I see a horse running away, my reaction is to stop using whoa and shift to recovery mode. A running horse that is having whoa yelled at it is being taught to run while whoa is being yelled at it.

The other day, I just shut up when I saw that it was hopeless, dropped the saw and started trotting up the trail. The calmness in my voice is a condition that I have practiced for years. In the midst of that kind of confusion we need our animals to believe that we are the constant. So even though things were out of my control for a few minutes, as soon as I saw an opportunity to regain it, is inserted myself calmly.

And I want to add that as I approached them off the trail, and recognizing that they were recovering, I was god damn glad that I was looking at a Barden Cart to just easily step onto, with a bar to hold onto, and my lines secure. The recovery transition was so smooth and seamless that I really think the situation never materialized into anything. They had some momentary confusion, but because of how things worked out the message that really came home to them is that I am there guiding them, and the following 3 hours went smoothly.

Can you imagine trying to climb onto a high cart, or trying to pick up lines that were wrapped around thrashing horses’ legs? Even a team loose with traces, heel chains, and evener all tangled under them would have made the situation much worse than it was.

Humility is key, and I know it was a near miss, but I tend to cover a lot of bases, and while I am letting this sink in, I am also taking note of the tools that I brought to bear that gave me the opportunity to recover.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Well she came to me a free horse having run away for he previous two owners. She has been very responsive and responsible, so I was getting a bit skeptical, so I pushed the limits. The funny thing was that I just didn’t expect that log to let go, but I had a strong intuition that it was the right time to test her.

I personally do not have two whoas. I believe that whoa means stand, and that I believe is part of the problem. She has never had that level of expectation. She is so ambitious, I think she has been conditioned to go when hooked, because her previous handlers lacked the discipline. She doesn’t trust me enough yet to let me determine when she starts, and for how long she stands waiting for me to determine that.

I need more functionality than what I have been getting, and in order to get that I need an honest appraisal of where we are at, so pushing the envelope is one of the ways I find these things out. Giving her some freedom to show me where her mind goes in these situations is more informing than destructive…… And thankfully my miscalculation about the log didn’t end up worse.

Today will be a new day for her…..

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Looks like a great forum….. The last thing I need is more e-distractions right now, so I’m gonna hold off reading too far….. Some great cross-over topics though.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

😯

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Stephen, I use forecarts for several tasks, and will write a response soon, but just wanted to reply now to get this on the board. Seems that many new posts are not as evident until someone replies.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I know that the question was initially about stocks, or tying, but I think that it has more to do with communication than equipment.

It is a common misnomer to use the concept of “respect” for what we expect from our horses….. As an example I found this quote by Ray hunt to be very descriptive of what I was talking about….

“The horse does one of two things. He does what he thinks he’s supposed to do, or he does what he thinks he needs to do to survive.” Ray Hunt

This speaks to the tendencies of the animal. I personally do not think that a horse actually does anything out of respect. Of course they will learn to respect boundaries, but that does not necessarily translate into actions related to expectation.

It is, as I have said many times, out of trust that they cooperate. Respect is a razors edge where if it suits their interests they practice it, but without trust to back it up…. meaning they trust that we deserve their respect…. their respect is fickle.

What they are “supposed to do” cannot be a forced act….. it is a choice they make based on the balance against what they “need to do to survive”. If we cannot make that choice favorable, then it will always be a chore. Developing trust in the animal that the cooperative communication of the interplay between human and horse is stronger than any other drive is the key as I see it.

Carl
😉

[Carl Russell]

Thanks for sharing. Congratulations Jay…. Keep up the great work, Carl

[Carl Russell]

These are great posts…. I thought of another way we manage nutrients on our farm, and that is through intensive grazing, and feeding hay out in the winter. As Stephen mentioned scale, sometimes scale is determined by economic considerations, but it also can be the other way around.

Importing nutrients as square and round bales, and feeding them out during the winter by moving the steers, cows, and horses around the farm is much less effort and cost than gathering manure, handling it, and re-spreading it, and allows us to maintain the scale that allows us to operate without the kinds of investments that start to dictate scale changes.

Using this kind of system also lends itself quite well to the having draft animals as primary motive power. Using systems that require less infrastructure, or investments in power equipment allow the appropriate use of animal power. I probably only collect about 1/3 of the manure that is generated and applied to the land on our farm. Pasturing hay fields at least part of the year is the primary way we get nutrients on those fields, and end up using most of our compost in gardens.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Why do you think it isn’t white ash?. Green ash wood would be so similar, that it would be insignificant.

Basswood is defuse porous, while ashes are ring porous. This wood looks to be ring porous.

We need an end-grain shot.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have handled my horses’ feet and shod them for nearly all of the 27 years I have worked horses. This exercise can be frustrating, and complicated to get good at.

Before I get too deep, I will say that I have only used a stock once, when my leg was injured and I needed the assistance. I have seen them used well, by people and horses that are experienced, but in my case, it was a necessary attempt at something I didn’t prepare for… it didn’t work out well, and I have always worked on their feet in cross-ties since (as before).

It can be misleading to see stocks as restrictive devices…. they can be, but should not be used, or thought of, as such. They simply are a way to assure that the horse is safe, and that the farrier has the support they need for accurate work.

Any time we work with horses, we need to think about how we appear to them. If we are uncertain, or confused, we will not appear in a way that is comforting to the animal. Remember confusion often leads to frustration. Working on horses’ feet (in or out of stocks) requires a significant amount of cooperation from the horse, which is a function of the leadership that is coming from the handler.

Working on feet is at its best one of the foundational exercises for developing partnership with the horse, but it doesn’t in my mind need to come from tiring, or fighting against the horse.

I have referred to pressure and release many times when addressing working with horses. This is a perfect opportunity to apply the same principles here. When a horse pulls its foot away, it is not trying to be a nudge, it is just letting us know that it is not comfortable with what we are doing, and that it is unclear about what we expect.

This can often be because previous handlers also tried to fight the horse for its foot, or were a bit frightened, or unsure. It can also lead to frustration, which in turn leads to heightened confusion for the horse.

I have looked at many horses for sale over the years, and I’m amazed at the number of people who leave foot handling to farriers, or someone else……

First, like Jeroen mentioned, get informed. Reading in a book is a great place to start, but watching, and learning from a knowledgeable person really is necessary. Don’t just look at the foot, watch how the person works around the horse.

A horse has no incentive to pick up its foot. In fact with a foot in the air, or worse being held by someone, they are at their most vulnerable… we need to recognize the depth of trust that we are expecting from them…. I mean deep…. like DNA deep.

Watch the first time you reach for a foot. You will notice the breaking point in the animals trust bubble. Push on that, but not to the point where they pull away. Put on the pressure, and release before they retract, therefore rewarding them for allowing you in.

When you pick up the foot, do the same thing. Get it off the ground, make a comforting sound, and put it back down. It is not about holding the foot up, and it isn’t about trimming, it is about developing communication that is based on the horse trusting that you will treat them with dignity…. recognizing just how much they are giving to you.

Steadily increase the amount of time you hold the foot, always giving it back before they need to take it back…. as soon as you start fighting with a horse, you will be teaching them that you want to fight over their feet…. which we obviously don’t want to do.

One of the main reasons why becoming comfortable with the work is so that you can think clearly about the exercise. If you are struggling to get the toes trimmed, that is all you are working on… however, if you are comfortable with what you need to accomplish, then you will be able to see how to get the toes clipped while working on a communication exercise.

Remember the pressure is only part of the formula. Without the pressure the reward has no value, but the horse doesn’t learn from the pressure, they learn on the release. Release every time the horse does exactly what you want. Be willing to set those expectations small enough that a reward is possible. Recognize the slightest tries.

Before long working of feet will not just become an accomplishment that looks good, and works good for the horse, but will be a rewarding experience of subtle and comprehensive communication….

Carl
🙂

[Carl Russell]

Good points Erika, I forgot about my GD hopper spreader for lime and granular fertilizer. I load by hand, either from a bulk dumptruck load, or by the bag. It has adjustable outflow, which is pretty rough, but it works good enough.

We also picked up a small sprayer that Lisa uses for applying her biodynamic preps and micro-nutrients our pastures….. it is a 4whlr attachment, but is battery operated so I can also mount it on my forecart and use the horses. It has a wand and broadcast mister.

Carl

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[Carl Russell]

Stephen, I use the same spreader that you use. I load by hand, and spread it on thick before the final discing.

A few years ago I bought an old JD 1010 crawler to use in the woods for building roads and pushing up logs. It is a bit of a relic, so my expectations are not, nor were not, high. However, the first spring after I bought it I was looking at my manure piles, and it dawned on me that I could use it to turn them for better composting. It works great. I build a contribution pile for a season, then roll it over and let it work again while I build a new one. Before I turn the new one over I move, or spread the old one.

I don’t have a tractor for loading so that is still elbow grease, but generally I like to let the critters rest while I work to load, then I rest while they spread. I was told as a young teamster to remember, “It take a lot of work to work a horse”…. and it is still ingrained in me as part of my relationship with the working animals that I have work to do too, and forking manure is damn honest work.

We still move quite a bit of manure by the wagon-load too, as not all of our food plots are fields. We have raised beds by the house, and now a small hoop-house. Some of that is also done with the horses, but the kids move small loads with the 4-wheeler…. loading and unloading by hand.

I do like the old JD spreader. Reasonably simple to maintain…. although fixing chain that breaks with a load on kind be a little interesting….. Always keep the fork on the forecart.. 😯

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Regulated lateral pulsations….

[Carl Russell]

I think this speaks to the dichotomy of perspectives that raise their heads time and time again for us as we work to improve our skills as teamsters.

Are we trying to get the horse to figure out the situation, through gizmos, restrictions, exhaustion, desensitization, or conditioning?

Or are trying to develop ongoing communication to direct the animals into and through each new situation?

I see the buck-rope as part of the first solution. I see Erika’s comment as part of the second.

Some horses will calm down all on their own, falling into habitual action with only minimal guidance, but as I have written before they then tend to also not take much guidance very well either. However most horses are actually looking for guidance, or at the very least demonstrative communication.

One challenge we are faced with when driving teams is the inter communication between horses. This is where Erika’s comment is so important. Rather than letting them work it out between themselves, we need to step in and guide them both more actively.

I have had a similar problem with my blind mare, who was so tuned into me that she was mentally (and physically) two steps ahead of my gelding. This was disturbing to the gelding. At first I thought it was just that he was lazy, but eventually figured out that he was actually responding to her heightened sense of confidence. He was not getting the subtle signals that she was picking up on, so he was confused about what was expected from him, and he was focusing more on her than on me. I had to find a way to drive him so that he could be up to speed with her, and confident in my leadership.

Remember the actions of these animals are more about what we are not doing than they are about some prethought on their part.

Carl

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