[Carl Russell]

It is indeed an interesting component of this, and worthwhile for Anthony to consider.

I agree with Donn, having novices work with my horses has given me insight into my work with my own horses that I would not have found in my own little world.

As Grey pointed out, there are many little things that we do with our horses on a moment by moment basis that provide comfort and security that support our leadership. Sometimes that is just as simple as the animals are more comfortable giving leadership to someone they are accustomed to, or it could be a sense of confidence that we exude in situations where we ourselves are more comfortable, or it can also be related to continual and disciplined execution of specific aspects of physical communication….

I was first exposed to this many years ago when an old man came to float the teeth on what I considered to be a very nervous mare. I was so concerned that she would not cooperate that I had hands on her halter….. when I saw him looking at her, and showing her what he wanted to do, touching her nose…. I saw her visibly relax… it almost seemed that her hair laid in a different direction….

I also became aware of the situation with a novice when I gave him the lead to hold a horse loose in a field for me to remove his shoes. A horse that I had handled since 3 month of age, reared and wheeled as I lifted his foot, yanking the lead from the novice, and moving about 20 yards away. I approached him, got the lead, handed it back to the novice, telling him to be more assertive… again the same thing…. I then took the lead, told the novice to stand out of the field, told the horse to stand untied, and removed all four shoes.

I am not of the mind that horse “test” boundaries. I see it more from a standpoint of when they do not see boundaries reinforced, they either become uncertain and look for security in their own terms, or they fall back on other previous habits developed when leadership was lacking.

One thing I will say is that I think many people see running away as a fear response, and to a certain degree it is, but running is more accurately the power response that horses possess. Many times they can, and do, run because something startled them, but the reason they run is because they know that is how they can protect themselves through the power they innately possess. In this way I see a horse that is running as one that is looking for security that it feels is lacking right where it is.

Rather than trying to prevent a horse from running, trying to establish boundaries against it, I focus on those aspects of my own body language and impetus that help the horse to find my company most comfortable. Putting high expectations on a horse is paramount, but it is the reward for appropriate behavior that will teach the horse, and it will also encourage the animal to seek guidance from the teamster.

It is really important that the horse knows that they are in the presence of a person who is extremely comfortable with the situation, one who will be able to provide the calm that the animal desires. If they interpret body language to suggest that the person is on uncertain footing, or that the calm is intermittent, or that there is no clear definition between force and calm, expectation and reward , pressure and release, then they will be inclined toward their own security system.

Having novices work my horses has helped me to recognize where and how I do these things, or where I may not be doing them. It has also helped me to refine this communication so that I can recover quickly what has been lost. It also has helped me to see that even a horse that is out of communication condition can be inclined to quickly pick up the line from us if we are clear about these things.

Sometimes, a horse will give us very little room to actually provide reward, and that is where we need to step back and look for ground where we can redevelop that leadership. In the course of farm work, and busy days that can seem impossible. I know several folks who just keep working with a situation because of all of the schedule challenges, and never seem to get back to fundamentals. All I can say is that it will be time extremely well spent….. and could be a very important learning experience for the apprentices.

I am currently working with a very challenging mare that was previously allowed many vices. I am also working with an apprentice. What I have decided to do is something that Donn recently shared with me, and that is to let him work with all of my horses on a very fundamental basis, one that I know I can recover quickly, getting halters on them in the field, leading them to the barn, grooming, watering, picking feet, giving him a chance to experiment with basic leadership exercises. When it comes to working this mare I am sharing with him the successes and challenges as we move through the day, showing him what I am seeing, and what I am trying to do to compensate, and where I see the opportunities for reward, and how that reward is, or is not, changing behavior.

I also plan to spend more time with the more experienced horses, but she is in need of the basic work in a way that she deserves more of my attention than I can compromise. It leaves very little room for the intern to get more hands on working experienced horses, but we have agreed that there is invaluable lessons in this manner that may not be available if everything was perfect…

Anyway, Anthony it is difficult to divine from this distance exactly what you are dealing with, but give yourself the flexibility to step back from the situation to evaluate some of these things as they relate to your normal manner of communication, and use it as an opportunity to learn about yourself instead of just being a teacher to others.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Great clip. Thanks for sharing that.

I have had several opportunities over the years to clean up a pile of tangled horses. Only two, mine, and usually not on level ground with anyone to help.

I have always been surprised at the calmness. I do work on having my horses trust me, but I have to say that it is uncanny the way good horses react to such a situation.

I have even had to unharnessed one horse in order to free them, and without halter had them stand and wait for the other to be freed, then reharnessed. And like the announcer said, you just can’t train for that.

A few comments about some of the other comments. NEVER use clips, snaps, or Conways on bit rings. A common misconception is that a strap under pressure must be cut, but a clean buckle can almost always be undone under extreme pressure. Clips, snaps, and Conways require too much slack to undo, and would need to be cut…… Then after the wreck you have lost your control to the knife.

The first horse that went down on me, I cut the side strap (unnecessarily) because I thought I had to. In the end I had to go home after I got him up because I couldn’t hitch him back up.

Even after a run-away, lathered and injured, I have bee amazed at how my horses look to me to assist them, standing calmly, and following direction, and waiting to be untangled.

This really brings home for me the momentary presence of the teamster’s craft. We need to be present, not only to the physical nature of what is going on, but also to the interaction between us and our animals. It is in the manifestation of that awareness that calmness in action is relayed to the animals. There are always choices.

Every moment brings new challenges, but also opportunities, and choices. Regardless of the tangle or constraint, if we step away from the situation mentally, step away from the connection with our working animals, then we give up any chance we may have toward solution, and the disconnection from the beast limits the future even more, for both of us.

There is courage, and faith in there for sure, but there is also exhiliration. To work unflinchingly toward an unknown solution can seem untenable. Working in the same way with a team of horses who are right there with you, carries incredible implications of responsibility, and no amount of personal preparation can provide enough experience to KNOW what the outcome will be. We focus on what we know we can do. Reach what we know we can reach. Use the tools we have at our disposal. All the while leading and partnering with the animals.

Description is evasive, but it awes me, and draws me forward…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

This is eerie… I have not had mine on grass, but the other day both horses decided to just walk off when I was un harnessing…. Maybe the planets are out of alignment….

Anyway, Anthony, I am unclear how the horse gets away from you.

Also, as much as we want to share experience with apprentice/interns/novices, I have seen significant deterioration in communication with my horses after letting them work with novices.

I would not be apologetic, but would just have them do something completely different for a while. Stay away from the horses altogether for a week or two, and just get back on solid ground with them yourself.

What is happening is dangerous and unacceptable, and no matter what expectations you or your apprentices have, this horse has great potential for you into the future, and you need to protect that. I am not blaming the novices, just pointing out that you may need to eliminate them from the equation until you get the leadership back.

I also want to point out how our confidence can become undermined faster than we are prepared for if something unpredictable happens in the presence of people whom we are not expecting to have difficulty in front of.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

A whipstock is a lash. The point being that horses do not back naturally, and rather than teaching them to back by pulling on lines, one should use other methods. Les is old school, so a whipstock used like on oxen to stand in front of the horse and cause them to back away from you by touching knees while saying back would be his method. Someone like George or Donn may choose to use a round pen and body position to get the horse to back while saying the word.

The idea is that when you use line pressure to mean many different things it blurs the lines of understanding for the horse. Contact is not so much for direction as it is a method of engagement, augmented by voice and slight variations for directional change.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Another reason why we want the horses to keep their heads straight is that it is more effective way to manage the draft. If they are bending their body, then they are not meeting the load straight. Having the inside horse step up allows each horse to cross over as they turn. If they sweep as they are moving forward they have less forward power.

Keeping the lines inside the horses refers to driving from behind. Clearly when you step off to the side one must make adjustments. The point has more to do with adjusting cross check length. If the cross checks are set correctly then the lines will naturally fall between the animals, and the bodies act as parameters to hold the lines consistently. If they are set so that the line fork over the top of each horse than there will be too much variability at the bit.

One thing to understand about Les is that he believes in fundamentals, so statement like always, are meant more as standards than actual practices.

Such as backing with voice command only, does not mean just saying back. It means picking up slack to the taught line, then rather than pulling back on the lines to force the animals back, using voice as the cue. It is important to understand that stopping on a slack line is still pertinent when backing. The natural expectation of starting on a taught line is that the horses move forward into the pressure, so voice instead of pressure for backing helps to clarify the different messages of pressure, then releasing pressure will be the cue to stop.

I was told by someone recently that a team that they had taken over from Les were ” a handful”. This is because his horses were not really well trained to do anything in particular, but the method of driving that he professes is a consistent disciplined communication that the horses learn to follow, but if a driver does not use that “language” with them they will be completely different animals.

There is more to say I’m sure, but I need to get to bed, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Only suggesting that because it sounds like the leather in you belly band is weak.I have been using nylon belly bands of a few years, just because I had some, and they do hold up well…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

No it really cannot be too snug.

It is just the angle of the shoulder in relation to the high draft on your cart, and the belly band should be strong enough to sustain that divergence of draft.

If you remember at one point we had a discussion on here with Andy Carson, and we were trying to figure out how much pressure would be diverted to the belly band…. and it turns out not much. However, if it does not hold that angle, then the divergence is shifted to the hame where the collar can slip.

Putting the point of draft angle-change down by the D-ring, locates it more central to the bulk of the animal’s weight, while keeping the collar firmly in place. This accomplishes two things, no shifting collar to cause sores, and it also allows the animal to lift the load with it’s hind end, while still having enough weight on top of it to pull it down as it moves forward.

If the angle of draft changes up at the shoulder, then the animal cannot lift as high without going under the draft, and then having to expend extra energy to pull it down as it moves forward.

Most of the time this is truly minimal, but the D-ring harness affords mechanisms to maximize ergonomic efficiencies, and this is a good illustration.

I suggest getting a biothane, or nylon belly band.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

They make the curb chain adjustable for a reason. Truthfully it should be snug, but some animals in certain situations may pull on the lines by the way they move their head, and if it is too tight it can compromise their forward motion. I have one horse that tends to need the lines down a notch, but unless the curb is on the last link he acts like I am holding him back.

Here is a quote from Les Barden’s document (attached) on lines and driving….

12. The adjustment of reins to keep horses reined-up evenly is a constant part of driving.

There is in theory a perfect setting that will provide equitable contact to each horse simultaneously, and there is a sweet spot where communication and understanding co-exist, but in reality the wind blows from many different directions all at the same time, and a little change here to address something may work, and truthfully is important, but there are often other areas that also need attention, or areas still that are beyond control, and we should be open to continually modifying our approach to refine communication.

This is what draws me into the teamster relationship. Communication to me is not just the transfer on information, but a dance of individual expression in an effort to attain mutual understanding. If a horse is having a hard time doing what I want, while I respect their individual expression, I am more interested in what it should be telling me about my inadequate communication…… then I start looking for tools and techniques to assist me in clearer messaging.

Another thing I thought of that really has nothing to do with the bit or lines, is the foundational training of a horse. Thinking about Tucker and Mollie, and now Tucker and Oz, I wonder what it is that Tucker doesn’t quite get, that the others do. I have had this problem primarily with one horse that I never really spent much time with individually. Due to time constraints, and the need for a team, I pretty much started him off in the team.

There are a lot of things that horses can learn from the reactions of the other horses, and possibly a comfort level in exposure to equipment and work, but if the more experienced horse is just too responsive, then the novice may be more put off by the sudden activity in relation to a misunderstood or miscomprehended signal. Once that habit starts, there is probably a cascade of other subtle communication that never make it beyond the dynamic between animals.

I found that by using a Liverpool bit, the added individual pressure gave me the ability to hold my experienced mare closer, and gave me the opportunity to work with the novice, encouraging him to get up to speed with the mare. Working him individually is always good, but once a horse develops a habitual behavior related to working in a team, never understanding the need to pay attention to the teamster, or reticent to commit power in the presence of the more aggressive horse, these things really can only be addressed in the team by improving subtle communication calming down the worker, and encouraging the slacker.

Sorry, it’s raining and I’m wasting time before heading our to do some timber cruising…

Good luck, Carl

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[Carl Russell]

I keep remembering something else I want to mention…. As the trace angle shifts, the D-ring rises, putting slack into the rear side strap. Also the collar slides up the shoulder under load adding slack to the top straps. Both these actions cause the britchen to drop.

When backing, or holding back, the forward pressure tightens these straps and the britchen rises into the prescribed location.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have had the same dynamic many times. As I have mentioned before, I found that it seems more a reaction to the slacking attitude of the other horse. A forward horse may be just very responsive, and the other horse unfamiliar, or uncomfortable with the expectations.

Either way, I still follow the old adage, “a working horse is a walking horse”.

When I began using a Liverpool bit so that I could set different leverage on each horse, I found my greatest advantage. Don’t hesitate to use the curb chain. Also don’t forget about encouraging the other horse…… But in the long run, do not accept more bit pressure than you want…. This is your initiative, and while it is also your responsibility to refine the communication so that it is clear what you want, if you want the horse to work slower, that is what you should make happen….. Otherwise you will always just be along for the ride…

As an aside, I am pretty sure that the Mollie horse that was working with Tucker would act the same way…….

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

My point about the belly band and the skin irritation under the collar is that when the belly band is slack, the angle changes at the collar, which allows the collar to slide upward under load, and back down when un-loaded. This slight shifting could cause the chafing that irritates the skin.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

George, I’ll point out another thing, you should be measuring from the hame bolt, which I missed before, so that would change my previous comment about trace length. It appears that length would be about 24″ which would require a pretty large horse. I would think 21-22″ would be more appropriate for your horses.

As I said though, your biggest issue is belly band tightness.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

George, is this the horse that has the funny skin thing under the collar? I think the front trace may be a little long, and inch or so, but I am more concerned about you belly band.

The belly band should be snug enough that you can just slide your fingers under, like collar, or britchen. Otherwise, every time the load is tightened the front trace will line up with the rear trace, and you will be losing your right angle at the hame.

I know we spend a lot of time making sure that the pole weight is carried on the jack saddle, so that takes our focus, but there really are 6 attachments (front side, front trace, saddle market, rear side, rear trace, and belly) on that D-ring, and they all play an important role in effective fitting.

Hope that helps, Carl

• This reply was modified 11 years, 2 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

Sorry George I cannot get the google to load the photos either… Hopefully the image post will be remedied soon….

[Carl Russell]

George, I have to run to some hot issues this morning, and needed to log into the google account, which I can’t remember the password for, so I’ll get a chance to look at the pics a bit later today.

Have a glorious day, Carl

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