[Carl Russell]

Donn, sounds interesting. I have never had a toe crack get to that point, but have had a few that were up the entire foot, and filled with junk at ground level. I have found the only way to successfully eliminate them is with a shoe on. I hope it works out for you, feet problems can really get out of hand on such wet years.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

My suggestion was not to break down the group into geographically oriented smaller groups, but to make sure that we have representation in this group from a wide range of regions, forest types, experiences, and perspectives.

I didn’t see the point of this venture as to get a bunch of people together with narrow sets experiences and interests. That is why I am holding off bringing in more until we have a discussion about the kinds of representation is absolutely needed to make this working group affective.

I believe that we need to keep the voices down below twenty just so that we can decipher the points of views. We are all quite well connected with other groups, and can bring representation from external discussions, so we don’t have to try to involve every person we know who we think would have good things to contribute.

Often times steering committees are not just made up of people who relate to, and can be related to by, members of the larger group. Often there is serious thought given to having people with financial, educational, media, and organizational experience that they can bring to the table. I know that many of us animal powered timber harvesters have broad experiences such as those I just listed, and I would support discussion to make sure that members of the working group are bringing some of those extra talents to the table.

As far as casting the broad net, the discussion that led to this working group was, and is open to every person who visits DAP. There have been many many more readers of those posts than there were posters, so my feeling to start is that those who want to step forward, have. I agree with Jason’s suggestions, but I think there needs to be pointed discussion about the make up of the working group, and soon, so that we can get a group together that can knuckle down on the task at hand.

Boy, do we need this rain!!! Every other day 1″-2″. Had a good day yesterday, maybe tomorrow.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

This page, entitled New Page for Draft Animal Logging Association Working Group is a private forum. It is viewable ONLY by people who are on a list to use it for issues pertaining to the group. It is also set to e-mail the content of each post to all people on the list, so that we all can keep up to date with what ever is going on without having to necessarily go to DAP to find out what has happened.

Post on here just as you would any other forum on DAP. It will only be seen by the people on the list in the first post of this thread.

Jason, I am not suggesting we limit the size of the group, only that the discussion that led to this development was one of working out details of a possible organization, and newsletter, and the pre-requisites for involvement have less to do with being proven horselogging practitioners than they do with having time, energy, commitment, and interest.

I think we should definitely invite new people into the “Working Group”, but for right now, I feel that it will be enough to just get those few of us that have already expressed interest to actually confirm some desired actions.

I will start another couple of threads. Anybody else can too.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jean I wouldn’t kill or sell. I am unclear why some one else was driving your horse, but seeing as you weren’t driving, it is nearly impossible for you to make a clear judgment about his future.

I would go back to square one, and start over building back what you had with this horse. I am not one to ever give up on a horse, there’s always a chance that they can be the horse you want them to be.

The real question is if you want to get rid of the horse. If you think he is too risky for you, and you don’t want to pass that along to some one else, then put him down. There is no reason that you should feel guilty about that. He is your horse, and it is entirely within your realm of responsibility to make that decision.

You have the right to decide that you don’t want to work that hard with a horse. And don’t beat yourself up, because it is your own personal experience.

Sorry to hear about this situation. Sleep on it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Ed, sounds about right. My dream plan includes pigs in part of the upper structure to turn the compost, and a green house as well to take advantage of the CO2 and nitrogen rich warm air.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jason,I have a list of the names that you have thrown out. I am going to hold off adding any more names until we have responses from all of the people who were involved in the original discussion. We may have some that don’t want to participate, and I think we need to remember that this is a working group not the fledgling association.

From my experience in such groups it is important that the numbers be manageable, AND that each member is engaged, interested, and can make the time commitment. That is not to say that is not the case with the folks Jason suggests, it’s just an attempt on my part to make sure that we can get targeted and effect discussion, and from an administrative standpoint, I don’t want to spend a bunch of time deleting and re-entering names.

I am completely in favor of making sure we have a broad representation both geographically, and experientially. I say we give it a week or so for everyone to get logged in here and to offer other names and opinions about the size and operational strategy of this working group.

Also remember that this forum, while part of DAP, is not visible to anyone but those who I include on the master list. We need to try to remember which audience we are writing to, because it may appear that we are visible to everyone else because we can see everything on DAP, including this invisible forum.

More later. Looking like a promising day, interrupted by a radio interview at 1pm.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

That sounds great. Let’s get Jean-Leo on this board.

Jason, I meant that I don’t know the DAP handles for the Bens and Ian. I need their member names before I can find them here.

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I overlooked Tim Carrol when listing. He is already here. I don’t recognize the other names from this forum, Jason.

[Carl Russell]

Oh yeah, it is located under Associated Organizations, Sponsors, & Collaborators.

[Carl Russell]

To follow up on Jason’s mention of the major publications, it occurs to me that we could send out an introductory news letter to be printed as an article in SFJ, DHJ, RH, and others like Draft Horse Connection. I know these editor would support our effort, and it will help in the start up phase of publishing and distribution.

Rick, I understand where you are coming from. I happen to have always combined my forestry management with the harvesting, so I can direct the emphasis of my harvesting projects, but i know that that is not the case for many others. I think there needs to be a distinction between marketing horse logging as a landscape service, and actually making a living “logging” with horses. I think that many people assume that if we charge for horse-logging it means that we are not actually performing a commercial logging enterprise.

I for one, have thought for years that the standard way of pricing stumpage as if the value of timber harvest lies there, is contributing to a significant detriment to our forests. If landowners can learn to see stumpage as an asset that can be managed to increase value per acre, then they will see timber harvest as an investment, and although there will often be a surplus income from every harvest, the cost of the operation is key in delivering the primary product of an improved residual stand. This, in my mind, is just good forestry, horses or not. But what if horse loggers just started promoting this as a standard of operation? I think we would leave the skidder jobs on the rusting hulk pile where they belong.

These are some of the distinctions that I think this kind of association could really help to clarify.

This is not necessarily a discussion for this thread, but in some ways it fits in because it is an example of the type of cultural shift in perspective that we can assist through organizing, networking, and sharing.

This is very exciting for me. I have spent many hours alone in the woods with animals thinking about these issues in the larger context of culture, but as most of you have too I’m sure, have just picked up the saw and cut down another tree, resigned to do what I could on a small scale. I really hope we can make a go of it. I will put all I can behind this effort. I think we can all bring a lot to the table, and we can go a long way without huge financial expense(although anybody with money is welcome to pitch in too;):D).

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I am in, seriously.

I will make a forum to house this discussion. I will include the names of those who have been contributing, and I can set the program to e-mail everybody with each new post. This can be really helpful when trying to include folks who may not check the progress as frequently as others.

Just to reiterate something I alluded to before, we have been working on developing a Draft Animal Power Network that would have some similar functions, but would not be limited to logging/forestry. We are in the beginning stages, and have made a plan to discuss it in detail at NEAPFD.

It seems as though this work can all be done at the same time. There may be a lot of mutual benefit, and it just seems like the time to form a broad based coalition of draft animal associations, to unify and move forward into the future.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

So we’re getting a lot on the table already. We need to figure out if we are going to try to reinvigorate NAHMLA, or are we going to establish a new group. I say this only because I don’t have much historical knowledge or involvement with NAHMLA, AND because I wonder if there would need to be some formal transition to a newly ambitious group.

It sounds to me like there may be some new goals and objectives that may make this group different.

There are a lot of things that this association could do, or work for, but in its most simple form, I think we should see it as a way for us to connect in a constructive way to implement actions that will advance the practice of animal powered timber harvesting.

The idea of getting Gov’t assistance for low impact harvesting is interesting, but my preference would be to formalize an approach to animal powered forestry that could be replicated. If we were to establish a region by region association of forest professionals working with horse loggers to institute the type of timber harvests that are more appropriate for animals, it would be more profitable, better for the forest, and better for the landowners.

Using this type of association to connect and inform members about these issues, could not only be beneficial to each member, but it could also energize a broader community around animal powered forestry.

Using this organization to help member make connections to help establish educational opportunities, group harvesting cooperatives, and regional marketing initiatives, are also other ways that I think would be valuable.

I think that we could also use this site, and possibly others as sources for material to put into a newsletter. Getting people to contribute electronically would be a good hybridization of web and paper.

Today was the first day I have worked a full day in the woods since May, so I’m fading fast. Cleared a trail to the top of our property, through narrow passages between rock outcroppings covered with large hemlock. Beautiful, beautiful site, with overlooks out into the valley where we live. Just feels good to have the opportunity to work with animals in a setting like that.

Good night, Carl

[Carl Russell]

jenjudkins;10112 wrote:

No, but it would sure be fun to post a vid of you giving it a try! :p

It surely would!

[Carl Russell]

Do you actually think I ride horses?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I moved this post to the working situations category.

I know there are a few people on this forum nearer there than me. They may have a few names.

Carl

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