[Carl Russell]

Jason, you cannot respond to the e-mails that come from this forum. They are just messages to alert you that someone has posted, and to show you what they wrote so that you don’t miss out on portions of the discussion.

When you want to respond, you just visit the site as usual, and post in the same old way.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey there Swamp Oak. I’m having trouble remembering the name of your family, but I used to get lumber and slabs from that mill, with my father, and some of the farmers I worked with. I still live in Bethel, and bought my first horse from Walt Bryan. You may remember him, and Maurice Thompson, and Frank Lambert.

Glad to have you on board, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have included my comments in blue below, Carl

Scott G;10356 wrote:

…….
So, all of that said lets get down to details. I will outline several point by point below. Please respond to them in the same fashion for ease of organization.

1) What is the consensus and/or discussion on what I’ve mentioned so far?
It sounds as though the consensus is that networking via an international communication effort is primary with the end goal being the formation of an international association based on input from contributors & subscribers.
I agree with this.

2) Throw out some names for the effort. Ideally ones that could carry over into the eventual association. Key words could/would be; draft, forestry, logging, powered, animal, international, etc..
International Draft Animal Forestry Initiative (IDAFI)

3) Mission statement. This should be 1-3 sentences at most.
To facilitate the international connection between draft animal forestry practitioners, exchanging information, providing benefits of association (ie. insurance, cooperative marketing,etc.), and advocating toward mutual goals.

4) Goals. List five goals, in order of priority, for this effort. Clear, concise, and limited to one complete sentence.
1. to establish an international directory of associations, organizations, and individuals who are supporting the work of draft animal forestry practitioners.

2. to develop a network of information sharing, such as websites, e-newsletter, and hard-copy newsletter to support the international community of draft animal forestry practitioners.

3. to form an association to support the international community of draft animal forestry practitioners.

4. to improve opportunities for draft animal forestry practitioners to unite regionally, and internationally, to share information, work, markets, and advocacy.

5. to advance an ecological perspective of forest management, based on the use of draft animals, and other low impact/low input strategies.

…….

[Carl Russell]

I usually like to have an hour or so between feeding and working. In your scenario, I would give them a flake of hay, and some grain when I first got home, and go take care of a few other things. In a half an hour, I’d water, then harness, and go to work.

Although I don’t like them to be FULL when working, I do like them to have some food, especially if they have gone most of the day without eating. It helps settled them down.

Then when done with work, I’d water again, and feed them for the evening. This kind of scenario is difficult to integrate into an otherwise consistent feeding program, but horses can have some flexibility, as long as you’re not overfeeding, or overworking them for these relatively short evening workouts.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Mine are as Ronnie described. I tend to like them, for all the afore mentioned reasons, however, IF you have a horse that has not quite come to an understanding of perfect line pressure, then this ability to float can give that horse more ability to turn their head and provides less consistency for the driver.

I have used a spreader on one horse and not the other, especially in instances where one is taking advantage of the “freedom” of head movement. Likewise I use the holes in my lines to adjust pressure more to one versus another. All of these adjustments on harnesses etc. are there because there are as many ways to set these things up as there are horses.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Anthony, check out this web-site http://familycow.proboards.com/index.cgi?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

As I said, “close to never”. As with Donn, teaching is the only time I let another handle my animals. With supervision, and after time spent in my introductory process.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think it makes sense to set broad association goals, ie “bettering the plight of horse-loggers”.

We also to set goals for this working group ie. forming an association that can connect, educate, and advocate for Animal-Powered Timber Harvesters world wide.

And then to also look at short range goals like networking, appraising the scope of our audience, or developing a newsletter.

My sense is that if we start with the networking, reaching out to established associations, letting people know what we are talking about, and inviting them to participate in the network, then we will get a better idea of who’s doing what, where, and what if anything we can do to augment that.

Then through those contacts we can go about the effort to pull together a concerted formation of an association that could connect all the parties.

I think the first newsletter can be very simply something that lays out some of the background philosophies that we’ve kicked around, and letting people know how to contact the working group. It should probably be something electrical, and copied to major publications. Many of us have contact lists that we can share.

I think Tim’s (LanceK) comments are good in that perhaps that can be one of our long range goals, to help people form regional associations.

My wife Lisa McCrory has been working closely with Northeast Organic Dairy Producers Alliance since it’s inception, and she shared some insights with me, about using “Constant Contact” to manage e-mail addresses, and to send out their monthly e-newsletter. Costs $260/year

Also she is the editor of their quarterly hard copy newsletter. The objective is to have advertising pay for most if not all of the newsletter. They hire a designer who also manages their website, but basically he charges $30-35/page for layout and design. The finished product is then printer ready. NEAPFD hired him for our program catalog, and he is very easy to work with and very much worth the money.

This is not to say that we should be starting there, but we need to be clear on the fact that as working people we are possibly not going to have the time to devote to the administration of such things, and although the first go-arounds can be very simple, if we are serious about having a sustainable enterprise we should be looking at ways to bring people into the operation who can be paid to do the work for us, so that it gets done, in timely fashion, and professionally delivered.

Back to freezing beans and gardening. The woods were muddy last week, and I worked, but now they are as muddy as mud-season. Vernal pools are full. I’m surprised I don’t hear peepers.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Good luck Dennis. It sounds exciting.

How’s the yung’un?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I call that a “Bunk Cart”. The butt of the log is pressed against the wheel at the inside of the turn, so that as the wheel rolls forward the pressure causes the wheel to lift the log upward and inward, onto the bunk.

I made mine from an old truck rear end, so I have 17 inch wheels. Even at that height it is very stable. I have used it primarily to haul tree length pine (18-24″ at the butt-3-4 logs). It was great because I could overcome a lot of variable ground, and pull tree length, but it put a lot of pressure on going down hill.

Best I have found for skidding downhill is either bobsled, or scoot. Twitch log length to a main trail, then load the sled for the main haul.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

OldKat;10301 wrote:

…….Oh, and BTW: Your point is well taken about electricity usage, but you might want to know that only about 1.5 to 2% of all commercially generated electric capacity in the US runs on oil these days. That is down SHARPLY from 15 or 20 years ago. Most is still carbon based fossil fuel, so I get what you are saying. Currently about 50% is from coal, 20% from natural gas (and increasing rapidly, almost all new capacity is simple cycle gas fired turbines) about 19% is nuclear, with the rest being everything else. Hydro-electric is about 7 or 8%; so you can see as of right now all of the other alternative forms, wind, solar etc are not contributing a significant % of our electricity needs. That is likely to change, but it probably won’t be as soon or as dramatically as some people would like or think it should happen. These figures were from 2006, the last year for which I have seen numbers posted. Things have not changed a whole lot since then.

It won’t ever happen in my mind. Not to the degree some are implying we need. The only way non-petroleum energy will ever sustain us is after we get behind the idea of conservation. As a culture the US wastes significant amounts of electricity just through complacency (leaving air conditioning on in office buildings, city Christmas lights, transmission loss, etc.), but the prices are still so low that people are not motivated, in their personal residences to use only what they need, and to build down to that level.

The biggest problem we face concerning our future energy needs is our habits. We are not going to meet current demand with so-called alternatives(how can energy that is gathered from a natural source be considered alternative?), ever. And as long as pundits argue with that assumption we will waste time. People need to understand conservation, and get behind it, practice it, and reduce our need, then we can consider alternatives.

To me it isn’t just an environmental issue, as much as an economic one. I don’t think that it makes sense to use more energy than is necessary, even if I can afford it. This is not a new concept. I was raised by frugal people, and I think there is a lot of sense in doing without waste.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I agree with Gregg about the difficulty of printing and sending out a newsletter, but we need to explore some way to connect to people off-line.

I am willing to let DAP be the center for operations, but I don’t want to “run the show”. I think that using DAP we can start to network to people who will connect us to the international community that we are talking about.

Perhaps once we get an objective nailed down (another thread http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=2009), then we will have a better idea of the size and scope that this group needs to be.

I also agree that Lynn Miller will be helpful. I am not sure of what presence he would have on-line, but I am sure that he would support us by offering a portion of SFJ for us to reach out to our community. Also, his new small farms conservancy is trying to address some interesting issues that seem like they may have similarities to some of what we have been kicking around here.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have just added Ronnie Tucker to the list.
Welcome Ronnie,
Carl

[Carl Russell]

My own two cents are that I have a lot of interest in “connecting” with people involved with animal-powered forestry. I think that there is a lot to be gained. From my own experience, just finding a few other horse-loggers in my region was a big picker-upper, and I think we have all expressed similar sentiments.

For one, I see a lot of horse loggers who have a hard time making a go of it. Not from lack of skill, or drive, but because they are struggling in an industry controlled by mechanized customs.

Also I see a great opportunity for environmentally oriented folks to make real impact of sustaining the forest ecology, by taking advantage of the limitations of horses to practice a method of forestry that can be both more ecologically sound, and more profitable for practitioner AND landowner in the long run.

I would like to see this be an attempt to connect through association with practitioners on an international level to build a network of solidarity, and to develop a conduit to disseminate information that could advance the trade.

I also embrace the idea of a newsletter, as hard copy, to reach many people not on-line. However, this could be a huge undertaking. Perhaps the broad association could be a clearing house for pulses of important information that could be disseminated electronically to regional associations that have newsletters that are circulated more efficiently to members.

Before we make a lot more sense here on this forum, I think we need to develop a consensus on what our objective will be, so that we can filter all of our other discussions through it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jean, I hope you’ve found some resolution. I realize that you just need to deal with what happened, and there is very little that can be gained by trying to relive the problem, but it just occurred to me that this would be a good opportunity for me to reiterate a piece of my own personal philosophy.

At times I have been rebuffed because I never trust a horse, and I rarely(close to never) let anybody else drive my horses. The reason I don’t trust horses as a rule, is not because I believe they are malevolent creatures, but because I understand them to be as unpredictable. I also have worked with them long enough to know that what I thought was true about them yesterday is only a fable today. However I don’t hold this against them, I just know it to be fact.

Because of this, I don’t “share” my horses with other people. Conversely, I never drive other people’s horses either. I do not believe that having many drivers affords the horse an opportunity to have a broader understanding. Rather, I believe that it leads to confusion, and misunderstanding, what Karl referred to as “holes in the training”.

Both of these points are things I learned from teamsters and horse people that I have known throughout my life. The most accomplished teamsters that I have known, never have anybody else driving their horses. It is just a basic commitment to the working relationship.

I realize that many people who are starting out, or are looking for help/advice, or are unsure of their skills will let others drive the animals. While it may give some example, and some exercise to horse, it just reinforces the tendency to not take ultimate responsibility, and the horse is never quite sure who to look to for guidance.

In my mind this creates a negative loop of undesirable interaction. Even though another teamster may be much more experienced, I have no understanding of exactly how they are practicing the art, and therefore I have now way to reinforce, or counteract that, with my horse.

I am not trying to admonish Jean. I realize that this is an extremely tragic situation. I hope you can see the value in using this example as an opportunity to point this out. When we become complacent with risky choices, then we become accustomed to them, and we develop a feeling of successfulness that disregards the potential for devastation. Just because nobody picks up the loaded gun left behind the door doesn’t mean that it is a good habit.

The worst thing about this situation is that Jean didn’t have the opportunity to make it right with Kruiser before it turned into the tragedy that it is. The same thing may have happened to Jean, rather than to her friend, but there is no way to know. To me the biggest devastation is in the loss of relationship between the horse and owner. I will take full responsibility for anything that I happen to cause through my own misjudgments, but I protect my relationship to my animals by being the only human allowed to impact it.

My heart goes out to you Jean, Carl

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