[Carl Russell]

Larry, I also use a whip, actually I usually cut a marshmallow stick, and I never use it to correct a behavior. If your animals are doing the wrong thing, that is the behavior they are learning. The trick is to get them to do what you want then reward, instead of doing what you don’t want then correcting. Does that make sense?

I use the marshmallow stick to encourage a horse to move, or try harder, but in conjunction with the command, “Ted!”, or “step up”, etc. Combining the physical motivation with the verbal reinforces the verbal and soon they will perform at the verbal command as prescibed.

I do not believe that a horse will see you carrying the whip and be able to understand that you intend to use it to enforce your will. Using a whip to drive cattle is a bit different. They learn to watch the whip, and will learn that if they move appropriately then they won’t get it. Even there they are not reacting to protect themselves from discipline, just learning to follow a physically demonstrated command, that at the beginning is performed in combination with the hit of the lash.

As far as them coming to you. I don’t think they are coming to you when fed, because they see you as leader. They are allowing you to socialize with them while they wait to be fed. That is why when you go to them when they are preoccupied they are indifferent.

It takes practice, but try going to the field with more intension. Don’t try to shy them toward you. You should be trying to get their attention. They should have some reason to watch you. Be loud and fast. Go work on the fence, or split some wood there. Let them see you in your motivated, prominent, confident state. When they come over to show interest in you, then reward them with your attention, but shoe them away before they get bored with you.

When you get them showing interest in you, they will come even if they standing in 6″ of new grass.

A good rule is that when halter and lead are on the horse, THEY FOLLOW. You should not be waiting to see if they will need to be reminded by the whip. I would never use a whip like that anyway. If you get them to understand your position as the initiator, then they will follow.

I have used my pastures like big round pens, driving the horses away from me, and then rewarding them be reducing my demeanor and greeting them when they decide that they would rather follow me than be chased by me.

I ride my bike to the pasture and whistle about 100 feet from the gate. Sometimes in the dark, I will call, or whistle again as I am parking the bike. By the time I get to the gate they are either waiting for me, or on their way. Another pasture I walk to, and as I walk down the hill I let out a shrill whistle. Often they are 1/4 mile away. By the time I get there, here they come.

Several times over the years my horses have followed a moose through the fence and ended up miles away. They let me approach, even as they are still intoxicated with their freedom, put halters on all, sometimes as many as four horses, grab leads, and head back for home. This is not some trick reinforced by corrections. It is just the basic rules. I lead, you follow, ‘sall good!

I can relate to what you are saying. When I first started out, I was humbled by these animals. My body language and demeanor exuded this. I would ask them to do something, and they could hear the hesitancy, and would not perform suitably. When I learned to tell them what I wanted, and to present myself with more confidence then they were more confident and more interested in following me.

We all have our situations where we are confident, and comfortable. Often when learning to work with horses we feel uncertain, and question ourselves. This is not a leadership skill. Sometimes it is very difficult to act like the leader when we don’t feel like one. That is why it is important to do things with your horses, or around your horses, that you know you can do with confidence and certainty.

It is also good, although hard to do, to practice a confident swagger, or try to project confidence beyond your actual true feeling. Practice getting really big, and pushy, as a put on, acting, so that when the horses respond positively, you can quickly become the easy going quiet teamster you want to be. The fact is they need to know that you can be both cooperative and demanding, but they need to be able to choose between the two Larry’s. So even though it isn’t in your nature, it will do you a lot of good to show them that guy, but be waiting in the wings when they come looking for nice Larry.

Good luck,
Carl

[Carl Russell]

Try extending you window width. Unfortunately the site was designed on a new computer with a wider screen/window configuration. When you stretch out the window the header will go back to where it is supposed to be.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

near horse;10696 wrote:

I’ve been looking at the “working horse” site for more than a year now and while it does have some good stuff in the archives, most of the recent activity and almost all the new posts are “bitch and whines” from Bret about censorship by other sites. Since that is the crux of its activity, it’s still dead.

That’s too bad! Unfortunately I just don’t get around to other sites. I feel blessed that there are so many great contributors here. Thanks All, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Nohandle;10683 wrote:

…… While this board may suit many people and certainly provides a good resource, some of us find it impossible to speak here …….

This site is not moderated. Everyone can say whatever they want here. If what you have to say is respectful of other points of view, then it, and you may stay. If not, then yeah, it can be difficult.

Good luck, and thanx for the info on an alternate site, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Fifteen years ago I had a 1949 3 ton GMC. Actually I still have it…..it’s just blending slowly into the back forty. I used to move horses on it, wood, logs, hay etc. I really enjoyed having such a versatile vehicle, and have thought long and hard about getting another one. Just the last time I was investing big money, I had to get a 3/4 ton for plowing, etc. and decided to get a gooseneck trailer to go with it.

My ideal would be a 1 1/2 – 2 ton truck in combination with a log trailer with loader. The problem at this point is (obviously the money) that the road worthy trailers on the market are not designed to go to the woods. I would love to have a trailer that was wood worthy, that could be hauled with a fifth-wheel cart and horses, that could be taken off the fifth wheel, and with pintel hitch attached to the back of the truck. Load the truck and trailer and head to the mill.

It looks like the trailer that Taylor is using is in that ballpark. I am definitely intrigued, but short on cash and fabricating skills.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

As much as I appreciate the points of these last two posts, I think that it is important to draw a distinction between people with a lot of experience with disciplined and purposeful approaches, and people who are intrigued by draft horses and are striving to understand how to work them and keep them.

I have seen several instances where well-meaning novices will in part create situations where perfectly good animals become “problem” animals. (Plowboy posted some similar comments this winter)

I think that it is important to have good well-mannered animals to work , and to promote the craft, but it is equally important to emphasize the part played by, even the responsibility of, the teamster in taking the time to learn how to be disciplined enough to make sure that the animal has the best possibility to perform in a suitable manner.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

1) What is the consensus and/or discussion on what I’ve mentioned so far?
“I agree with this.”

2) Throw out some names for the effort. Ideally ones that could carry over into the eventual association. Key words could/would be; draft, forestry, logging, powered, animal, international, etc..

“International Draft Animal Forestry Initiative (IDAFI)”

“Draft Powered Forestry International”(I don’t mind this but think it should be animal and not just draft)

3) Mission statement. This should be 1-3 sentences at most.

“To promote positive impact forest management using draft animals and appropriate technology”

“To facilitate the international connection between draft animal forestry practitioners, exchanging information, providing benefits of association (i.e. insurance, cooperative marketing, etc.), and advocating toward mutual goals.”

4) Goals. List five goals, in order of priority, for this effort. Clear, concise, and limited to one complete sentence.

”Develop time-share arrangements for new technology like hydraulic forwarders.”

”Work to establish a separate and reasonable Worker’s Comp category for animal loggers.”

“To develop some sort of state or regional organization to help with training new and upcoming horse loggers Get more awareness to the general public find and promote new ways to use animal power to enhance our forest world wide!”

To develop and international draft animal forestry association.

“We need a way to rate or insure performance and praise a job well done”

“To establish an international directory of associations, organizations, and individuals who are supporting the work of draft animal forestry practitioners”

”To develop a network of information sharing, such as websites, e-newsletter, and hard-copy newsletter to support the international community of draft animal forestry practitioners.”

”To improve opportunities for draft animal forestry practitioners to unite regionally, and internationally, to share information, work, markets, and advocacy.”

”To advance an ecological perspective of forest management, based on the use of draft animals, and other low impact/low input strategies.”

“To serve as a networking, clearinghouse and contact information for individuals and organizations involved in animal powered forestry throughout the world.”

[Carl Russell]

Canning dilly beans, freezing string beans, digging potatoes, sawing beams, and trying to find shade. Might go buy a new ‘puter this afternoon.

[Carl Russell]

I recently had to switch truckers. Fred had been trucking logs for thirty years. He bought his first truck out of high school. Always drove a Kenworth with a Hood loader. Took his work very seriously. Charged high rates, but would sort, and do whatever was needed to do his job. He just got sick of the downward spiral this industry is in. High production, low quality. He ran a 3x straight job. Probably the last one in the area. He really like to haul logs off my job because I cut to grade, and he was proud to roll into a mill with a load of good logs.

I have switched now to Jacques. He is my age, and I used to work with him at a mill yard 25 years ago. The first trucker to haul off my landing was his dad, in 1983. Rosie(Rosario) couldn’t speak more than a few words of English. “Good Firewood”. Another throw back to the days when truckers worked with the loggers. He’d stack wood out of the way, not so much for us, but so that he wouldn’t have to do the work twice. Jacques is cut from the same cloth. Patient, knows his truck, and his work.

This got me thinking of the old characters.

Ray “The Blade” (Razor), was a legendary trucker in our neck of the woods. One of the only men to drive a loaded log truck over Lincoln Gap. The first summer I worked in the woods to make my living, we were cutting on USFS GMNF cutting SUM and WHA overstory from a shelterwood. There were some awesome logs in there. Old Ray’zor would freight that truck and he’d hit 3rd gear before he passed the end of our landing on his way out. He liked us “College Boys” because we cut the best logs coming into the mill that summer, and he got to haul them.

Or Maurice Thompson, old as dirt, and drove his last truck, and old IH 3x for over twenty years. He wore bottle bottom glasses, but he could recognize you at a glance, and always wove. He used to scale and buy logs off the landing, then sell them to the mill. He kept 5-6 loggers in business this way. His son drove him to his grave riding in the casket in the back of that truck.

These days, the drivers are young hurried, hourly employees of guys that are trying to keep big contracts with operations that move lots and lots of material. They are generally friendly, and most have had some upbringing in the woods, but things are definitely different than they used to be.

Oh, I miss the old days. I feel like an old timer.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

He wants to extend his stay beyond the field days. He is staying with a family in Randolph during the event, but wants to use the cabin for a short visit afterwards. I will speak with him tomorrow, and get more details, but those both sound perfect Jean.

I don’t need to spend a lot of time on this, and we usually don’t promote ourselves as arranging accommodations, but hopefully this won’t take too much.

Any others still out there, please pitch in, and thank you, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’m still lucky enough to get truckers wit 3x and pup who still know how to work on a log landing. I usually have products sorted, but I also make sure the landowner pays the trucking, so they get the money they deserve without cutting into my pay. I don’t tolerate cowboys who can’t slow down when loading and leave the landing looking worse than when they came.

These things may be changing. In the next ten years the logging industry may be much different, and I may just be marketing lumber directly from the woodlot to the builder.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hi Taylor, great to see you back on the site. Great pics, thanks for sharing them with us.

Although I also marvel at the functionality of motorized equipment like loaders and forwarders, I have held off ever buying any machines to compliment my animal-powered operation. I always felt that added expense, added cost to the operation, and required even more production. It also seems to me to put more pressure on the animal portion of the operation to increase its financial production, because the machinery takes more to run, and more to maintain, so the margin associated with the operation of the machine is much less variable. The work that you do with the machine can only be done with the machine, and because you’re paying for it you have to run it, which takes away from time working the animals, which bring the more potential because of their low operational cost.

It does take more time and muscle, but I have also found ways to get creative on the landing, using embankment to roll logs down, etc. I also use bobsled and scoot as very inexpensive and functional ways to move larger loads, twitching logs from the stump to a main haul road, and then loading the sled for the main haul.

I appreciate everything you guys are saying, and if I could forecast the next ten years with a better level of certainty, I might consider getting a forwarder. I would then have to probably hire someone to run the thing full time, which would also probably mean having another team and chopper in the woods as well……

Maybe I could get some apprentices???:rolleyes:

Carl

[Carl Russell]

In the case of the boss horse, this animal is making life or death decisions, and the insubordination of a youngster could be detrimental to the success of the heard. The physical control exerted by the boss can be justified, even if the leadership eventually is not successful.

In the case of a 4yr old work horse that is acting up, the perceived insubordination may have to do with the fact that this horse is just a renegade, but it is my feeling that if you’re going to grab a two-hander to re-establish yourself as some sort of boss horse, you better be certain that the behavior is not just the reaction of a horse that is not getting the style of leadership that they have gotten from you in the past.

If for some reason you are over-tired, short on cash, fighting off a cold, been spending too many hours running the kids around to events, or some other frustration, and you are just placing too rigid expectations on this animal, then pounding on them is nothing more than a venting of those frustrations. It may be, and often is, effective because the animal is hardwired to respond submissively, and once the frustration is vented the person is often less edgy.

I have been there, and I have learned that the “punky” energy that a four year old can have is exactly the kind of energy that I want to harness in the woods. However, it requires steadfast focus, patience, indomitability, and humility, which are hard enough to come by by themselves, but in combination they require commitment of purpose.

The reality is we have good days, and bad days, learn our lessons, and move on.

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Scott, I was thinking this would be a good example. Simon e-mailed me a PDF copy a while ago. I really like what they have done. It is simple and presentable. The BHL is another example of what is already happening out there in other regions of the world, and I think that whatever we do, it should compliment these other efforts, while facilitating a connection so we can all see what’s going on with others.

Carl
ps. notice their editor is stepping down.

[Carl Russell]

The 1″ trunnel pins are turned at the end, so that when they are driven in the bottom of the side they hook and and can’t go through. They are countersunk so as not to protrude under the shoe.

The shoes are 4×4 hardwood held on by threaded rod bolted through the runner sides, and countersunk so the bolt doesn’t drag. The sink holes are usually 3″ deep so that the shoe can wear away and not expose the bolt head.

The shoes are fit by laying the long section on and cutting the angle to match the angle up the front of the runner. Then the front shoe is made by turning the remaining section over and overlapping the back shoe so that the front shoe takes most of the wear.

Carl

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