[Carl Russell]

Nice job, Anne. Thanks for that, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks for posting this. I will have to get my daughter to translate that for me. Welcome, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Whenever I leave the farm for hourly work, whether for forestry consulting, working with the horses, or chainsaw work, I charge $50/hr. I generally find that at the $/MBF rates described before I can easily average $35/hr putting out logs. This I figure is pretty good money especially as there is generally a fair amount of work to add all those hours together, as apposed to a few hours here or there.

Being a forester first, I always see my harvesting as “forestry”, and not just cutting, so there is always an element of extra services. I often have to figure in to my cost estimates, hourly rates for non-commercial work such as TSI, and aesthetics(ie. piling brush, or trail building…in excess of what I have to do normally for harvest).

Unfortunately I am not a machine, so some days I work harder, or am more disciplined than others. Some days I get wander lust, and end up following a deer trail, or checking out an old cellar hole, or casting a line in a beaver pond. I also like to break up my day, attending to more than one enterprise somewhat simultaneously, so I find it easier to make an estimate of daily average production, based on focused work, and to take a few lumps financially, than to try to keep track of all the different cost/profit centers and to charge/pay accordingly.

In other words, I have just found over the years a range of harvesting cost/income that I know I can be comfortable with given an appraisal of the variables of different jobs/sites. I prefer using the flat rate $/MBF method as it enables me to present my services as value added to the land holding, at the same time providing some stimulus to actually get some work done.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

cousin jack;11030 wrote:

The problem is getting started though and getting a good reputation. The only way I could get going was to buy the standing timber and sell for firewood, meanwhile the wood owner has got me piling up all the brash, doing this and that, which is costing me time and money. Now, because firewood prices are rising he wants to charge me more for the standing timber, it’s hard work as you all know, but he just see’s what firewood is selling for to the end user and what I pay him, he dos’nt seem to equate the time, skill, sweat, fuel, repairs,haulage. What I am trying to say though is I have to put up with this to get going, and I am “winging” it at the moment, grateful for advice though 🙂

There definitely is a period of time for paying dues. I also started out with a sense of apology for not knowing all that I thought I should. That goes for services that I might been able to provide, as well as skills that I required to be efficient and therefore profitable.

The point is to be clear about your actual cash expenses, so that as you are learning you can see what that learning is costing you, but then as you gain experience that equates to services then bring the charges in line with the expenses.

There is also a need to work “out” of the woods. Chatting up people who can provide new work opportunities, etc. And be looking for the work that you know will be advantageous to you. Networking, and open and honest communication with people in your community can be a very positive resource, that will cost to cultivate, but will provide results for many years.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Mascot Sharpening in Pennsylvania USA, makes some very good models. I don’t expect you would want to import them, but their designs may interest you.
Mascot Sharpening, Elam Fisher,434 Newport Rd., Ronks, PA 17572 717-656-6486

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Although I also agree that we need not devalue our enterprises by using terminology that is typical of the “historical” perspective, painting a quaint pastoral return to yesteryear. This, however is not the fault of those who practice old skills, but more a result of more modern interests to cause people to give up “old” ways, and to buy into “new”.

I also endorse the concept that animal-power is a futuristic reality, but I think it is extremely important that we get a clear view of past enterprises, because the practice of those skills in “olden days” is very real, and to me is like money in the bank, in terms of describing skills, methods, and systems that by their nature were tied more directly to the limitations of individual humans and their surrounding environments.

I for one absolutely embrace and practice many skills that have been lost to modernization, and I promote a move “backward” in time, in order to move ahead.

Subtle differentiations and honest discussion, not sound bites and flashy eye candy make the difference for me.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Biological Woodsman;10980 wrote:

… The point is that there is more to this work than is commonly accounted for and those values could be the tipping point information to access the best quality sites for those practitioners that provide the most superior services. ……

And there are also non-tangible rewards to the work that are not easily accounted for in typical terms as well.

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Scott, there is a lot of background behind my comments. I also wrote a business plan before I got started including all of the detailed analysis that you mentioned. It just has been so long that most of my appraisal is now just second nature.

I am always amazed in the logging business how many operators just work on figures that have been handed to them. There’s no wonder that competitive harvesting rates are so low in some areas, as many machinery operations just use economy of scale to keep cash-flow up to hide the fact that they are losing money every hitch. No wonder our forests are in such poor condition, and the logging profession is seen akin to the old pig farmer.

I think it is really important that horse-loggers learn to take advantage of the low production of the typical animal operations to limit the need to move rapidly from one job to the next, so that the jobs taken are affordable. Essentially because we can’t use economy of scale to make up for losses. But I also believe that if horse-loggers learn to think about their logging operation in calculated economic terms and present themselves as professionals, then the whole of us will benefit.

Know your costs, be able to clearly describe them, present yourself as a professional with a valuable service, and get paid what you deserve.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

When I started out we had both a guard-rail market for red pine, and a cabin-log market for red spruce, red pine, and even white pine, that made similar economics. for me, as to what Scott describes. Now only white pine cabin-log remains, albeit very good money, leaving red pine to very low sawlog prices, or utility poles which is typically pretty good, $250-$275/mbf on the landing.

The old guard-rail market was for small pole 5-7″d X 7’6″, as well as for sawed posts 8-12″d x 12′. The prison farm used to supply all the State’s guard posts until the steel market went south in the 80’s and steel companies got a monopoly on the guard-rail market.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Welcome Jared. Excellent project. Make sure to attend the NEAPFD October 17th & 18th in Tunbridge Vt, you should make a lot of contacts there.

Please keep us informed about your progress.

Thanks, and good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I figure I need to make $200-$400 per day when I am working in the woods. That being said I have worked many days for less than $50, and broken equipment.

I figure depending on the size of the timber and length of skid how I will price a job. Big timber, short skid, I might produce 2mbf/day = $150/mbf, possibly as low as $125/mbf. Small timber, long skid, 1mbf/day = $200/mbf.

Cordwood is hard because it isn’t worth what it costs to haul out, but I can’t cut and skid wood for less than $50/cd.

I can’t afford to work days longer than 6-8hrs in the woods, with all the other chores and farm work I have going at home.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rick Alger;10903 wrote:

Haven’t agreed on an exact price, but I expect it will be between $120 and $130 per thousand. Marked wood. Thirty to forty logs to the thousand. Mostly red spruce.

There is another another company that pays $90. They usually clearcut.

When I started in 1986 I charged $90/MBF to cut and skid logs. Now I won’t go into the woods for less than $150, but I figure I need to get between $175-$225/MBF to make it worthwhile.

Rick, no wonder it is so hard for you to cover costs. That is one tough market.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey Skunk, I have not been logging much with my current pair, but I hope to be some this winter. Feel free to contact me at any of the methods in my signature.

Take care, Carl

[Carl Russell]

If I didn’t have so much last minute planning for NEAPFD I would definitely be on my way. Maybe in a few years when there is a full-time staff running the event (:D) I will have the time. Sorry to miss it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Marko, I’ll work on it! Great suggestions, Carl

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